John 20:28 and the Trinity

[NWL]

Evidence is plentiful.

Even you loudly and proudly declared that Jesus is Theos in other scriptures, outside of 2 Cor 4.4.

Satan is NEVER referred to as Theos in ANY scripture.

Therefore, just these facts alone, which you soundly agree with, without taking anything else into consideration, makes Jesus the most likely candidate for yet another Theos title to be bestowed in 2 Cor 4.4.

Deal with it...

And...? Angels are referred to as Gods (Psalms 8:5), as are Men (John 10:34), as is Moses (Exo 4:16), my statement infers nothing.

If the evil spirits who once ruled the Egyptians (Exo 12:12, Exo 7:8-9, 11-12) are referred to as gods, and Satan is the ruler of the fallen spirits, then is it really a stretch to say that he too can be called god as they were, I think not. especially when he is unarguably called the ruler of the world many times.

(Exodus 12:12) "..For I will pass through the land of Egypt on this night and strike every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from man to beast; and I will execute judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am Jehovah.."

(Exodus 7:8-9, 11-12) "..Jehovah now said to Moses and Aaron: 9 “If Pharʹaoh says to you, ‘Perform a miracle,’ then tell Aaron, ‘Take your rod and throw it down before Pharʹaoh.’ It will become a big snake... However, Pharʹaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and the magic-practicing priests of Egypt also did the same thing with their magic. 12 Each one threw down his rod, and they became big snakes; but Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.."

I await your response to my other posts.

 

[Tambora]

In Psa 5:2, David is clearly referring to LORD/YHVH when he addresses LORD/YHVH as "my King and my GOD".

Psa 5:1 To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David. Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
Psa 5:2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.
Psa 5:3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

In the Septuagint LXX Greek, the phrase "my King and my God" is as follows:

ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου

...which would be translated literally into English as "the King of me and the GOD of me".

Likewise, Thomas' declaration:

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

...is the same Greek grammar as Psa 5:2 LXX:

Jn 20:28 καὶ ἀπεκρίθη Ὁ Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου


Just as David refers to YHVH as "the King of me and the GOD of me", Thomas is referring to Jesus as "the Lord of me and the GOD of me".

So yes, Jn 20:28 not only implies, but affirms that Jesus is GOD.

*edit:
In all four instances, the definite article 'the' is used.

'the' is emphatic.

In Ps 5:2
It's not 'a' king but 'the' king.
It's not 'a' God but 'the' God.

In John 20:28
It's not 'a' Lord but 'the' Lord.
It's not 'a' God but 'the' God.

Yeppers.

 

[Apple7]

Not according to any verse in the Scriptures. The God of the holy Bible is Jehovah/YHVH, and there is ONLY one Jehovah/YHVH;

Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: 5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Jesus repeated this commandment about his God, as the most important commandment of all;

Mark 12:29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

You just proved that Jesus taught The Trinity.



Mark 12.28 - 30

And coming up, one of the scribes, hearing them arguing, knowing that He answered them well, he questioned Him, What is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul" and with all your mind, "and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. (Deut. 6:4, 5)

Here we have Jesus declaring that the very first commandment is ALSO the Shema – of which, BOTH describe God as being Triune.

Jesus' reply was to a scribe...i.e. someone who knows the Hebrew scriptures of the OT.

Jesus references Deut 6.4- 5 which, in the Hebrew, declares the following...


• Tetragrammaton = singular
• Elohim = Plural
• Echad = one unity
• The juxtaposed words…Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
• God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
• Singular, Plural, Singular
• These three elements form one unity
• Singular = Plural
• Plural = Singular
• God = Gods
• God is clearly singular
• God is clearly plural
• God is Uniplural


Further, had you even bothered to study the Hebrew, the first commandment literally reads as thus…

Let there be (singular verb) to you no others (plural adjective ‘acherim’) gods (plural noun ‘elohim’) before my Presences (plural noun ‘panim’) (Exo 20.3; Deut 5.7)

 

[Apple7]

This is exactly the same God that Jesus, and the other faithful Jews worshiped;

John 4:22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

Jesus changed the location of worship to Himself and The Holy Spirit, in John 4.

• John 4.21; Worship is no longer to take place in the Mountain, or in Jerusalem.
• John 4.23 – 24; Jesus declares that the NEW place to worship is in Spirit and Truth, which is to worship in the Person of Jesus Christ, who is the temple, holding the Second and Third Persons’ of the Trinity.
• John 10.36 - 38; The Father is in the Son; The Son is in The Father.
• John 14.6; No one comes to The Father except through Jesus.

 

[Jacob]

It's so interesting Jacob how many passages in John, where Christ is claimed to be God, even though He never uttered the exact words, "I am God." Not only John 20:28 KJV, but also John 1:14 KJV, John 5:18 KJV, John 8:58 KJV, and John 10:33 KJV. Don't you see right here right now that He's claimed to be God five times just in these five passages alone, all just in John's Gospel? John wrote this after Peter died, the prince of the Apostles had been gloriously martyred in Rome. Peter called Him God in Matthew 16:16 KJV, "Thou art ...the Son of the living God," according to John 5:18 KJV's "said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God," and consider also some other times that He is referred to as the "Son of God." Matthew 14:32-33 KJV, John 11:27 KJV, Acts 8:37 KJV, Acts 9:20 KJV and what Paul called Him, 1st John 4:15 KJV and John's specifically saying what must comport with his explanatory John 1:12 KJV's "them that believe on his name," John 3:16 KJV's "whosoever believeth in him," and John 20:31 KJV, each of which is why he wrote his Gospel, stated in other words.

"The Son of God" means God.

It does not mean that. I have no problem saying that Jesus is the Son of God. Some say that it doesn't mean only begotten. I know that it doesn't always mean that, but that in a way it must always mean that if only begotten is correct and I believe currently that it is.

 

[Jacob]

The Scriptures warn us about false Christs, about "another Jesus", about false Gods. Those warnings apply directly to Church history.

Okay.

 

[Jacob]

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

• God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10
• God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4;
• God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18
• The Trinity…Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37

Romans 8:11 (NKJV)
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Apple7]

It is this God of the OT that Jesus and the Apostles believed;

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

This "triune" teaching directly contradicts the actual STATEMENTS made in Scripture.

There is no trinity.

The NT, just like the OT, is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)


Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.

Proper worship of God, according to God:

αλλα ερχεται ωρα και νυν εστιν οτε οι αληθινοι προσκυνηται προσκυνησουσιν τω πατρι εν πνευματι και αληθεια και γαρ ο πατηρ τοιουτους ζητει τους προσκυνουντας αυτον πνευμα ο θεος και τους προσκυνουντας αυτον εν πνευματι και αληθεια δει προσκυνειν

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is Spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.
(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:

• Father
• Son (Truth)
• Spirit

 

[Apple7]

Your "oneness" accomplices would disagree.

Oneness is not Trinitarian.

They, like you, don't yet comprehend The Trinity....and invent a straw-man argument and then attack that straw-man.

Not very impressive.

Jesus was praying to his God, and said that his God is "the ONLY true God".

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

You mean like this...?

οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος

oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)

 

[Apple7]

Nope. It's a "moving target" by design. It's an utterly illogical theory, inconsistent with God's Creation,and more importantly it is inconsistent with the clear and simple statements of Scripture. This "trinity" is the illegitimate offspring of Greek philosophy, mixed with a hand full of verses that are merely worded so that the trinitarian doctrine is a POSSIBLE interpretation of what is actually written.
Since it is a lie to begin with, there are NO boundaries, so discussing with trinitarian/oneness proponents is a game of "whack-a-mole". They dodge down the "Jesus is 100% man" hole when trapped .... and down the "Jesus is 100% God" hole, whenever trapped.
IF the Scripture WOULD HAVE stated "Jesus is God", or "God, Jesus and the holy spirit are ALL God", or even USED the term "triune" or "trinity".... THEN it would be a matter of faith vrs. God's Creation. But, since the Scriptures NEVER ..... EVER .... give a trinitarian/oneness EXPLANATION to any audience, anywhere in the Scritpures .... AND since we are instructed to understand God in harmony with His Creation .... it's NOT a matter of faith ..... trinity/oneness theories are fiction.

All that wasted effort spent in typing-out your rage...and you still failed to even deliver a succinct premise of what you are even arguing over.

Let's ask once again...

Please tell us, in your own words, what you think The Trinity is.


Simple enough request.

 

[Apple7]

And...? Angels are referred to as Gods (Psalms 8:5),....

Let’s review the term, mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm, which you want to be rendered as ‘angels’.

Its location as used in the verse in question…

For You have made him lack a little from God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm); and have crowned him with glory and honor. (Psalm 8.5)


Now…let’s compare the same exact term as used in the only two other places in scripture, as thus…


And he sent messengers to him, saying, What do I have to do with you, O king of Judah? I am not coming against you today, but toward the house with which I have war; and God said for me to hasten; stop yourself from opposing God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm), who is with me, and He shall not destroy you. (2 Chron 35.21)

Now…please tell us how many translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as ‘angels’ in 2 Chron 35.21?

That’s correct…none.



And then burned the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram; his wrath burned against Job, because he had justified himself rather than God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm). (Job 32.2)

Now…please tell us how many translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as ‘angels’ in Job 32.2?

That’s correct…none.


So…scripturally, we have thus established, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the Hebrew term, mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm, is to be rendered as God….NOT ‘angels’.

 

[SabathMoon]

In Psa 5:2, David is clearly referring to LORD/YHVH when he addresses LORD/YHVH as "my King and my GOD".

Psa 5:1 To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David. Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
Psa 5:2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.
Psa 5:3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

Without the thou pronoun, it wouldn't be both King and YHWH.

In the Septuagint LXX Greek, the phrase "my King and my God" is as follows:

ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου

...which would be translated literally into English as "the King of me and the GOD of me".

Likewise, Thomas' declaration:

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

...is the same Greek grammar as Psa 5:2 LXX:

It isn't because the second sentence is dependent on the first which has a plurality in Psa 5:2.

Jn 20:28 καὶ ἀπεκρίθη Ὁ Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου


Just as David refers to YHVH as "the King of me and the GOD of me", Thomas is referring to Jesus as "the Lord of me and the GOD of me".

So yes, Jn 20:28 not only implies, but affirms that Jesus is GOD.

*edit:
In all four instances, the definite article 'the' is used.

'the' is emphatic.

In Ps 5:2
It's not 'a' king but 'the' king.
It's not 'a' God but 'the' God.

In John 20:28
It's not 'a' Lord but 'the' Lord.
It's not 'a' God but 'the' God.

Thomas did not word anything which Thomas himself was saying. It is obviously an incomplete sentence, because there are not words connected to it afterward, but Jesus interrupts him immediately saying, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: [now] blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

They were blessed because Thomas had stopped doubting, but why did Jesus interrupt Thomas, and not get praise for being God, eh?

 

[SabathMoon]

Oneness is not Trinitarian.

It is Trinitarianism with all of the modalism, except holy spirit sometimes.

 

[Apple7]

...as are Men (John 10:34), as is Moses (Exo 4:16), my statement infers nothing.

If the evil spirits who once ruled the Egyptians (Exo 12:12, Exo 7:8-9, 11-12) are referred to as gods, and Satan is the ruler of the fallen spirits, then is it really a stretch to say that he too can be called god as they were, I think not. especially when he is unarguably called the ruler of the world many times.

(Exodus 12:12) "..For I will pass through the land of Egypt on this night and strike every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from man to beast; and I will execute judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am Jehovah.."

(Exodus 7:8-9, 11-12) "..Jehovah now said to Moses and Aaron: 9 “If Pharʹaoh says to you, ‘Perform a miracle,’ then tell Aaron, ‘Take your rod and throw it down before Pharʹaoh.’ It will become a big snake... However, Pharʹaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and the magic-practicing priests of Egypt also did the same thing with their magic. 12 Each one threw down his rod, and they became big snakes; but Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.."

So...

Now you have completely abandoned Theos is favor of OT scripture.

All of your examples use the term elohim and variants, of which, this term is known for having an extraordinary breadth of meaning.

Any serious scholar already knows this fact.

What would be most impressive, since you are now digging into the OT, is to pull-out ANY passage with the term Yahweh, which does not refer to Yahweh.

Good luck on that challenge...

 

[Apple7]

I await your response to my other posts.

Sure thing...

 

[Apple7]

Can you imagine that! Satan is referred to by the same term that he is referred to in another verse! I'm gobsmacked! I guess those to verse must be talking about exactly the same thing...... Not.

I guess the same meaning needs to be applied to Satan in Gen 3:1 when compared to Rev 12:9-12 when he's called a serpent too right? The same phrase is used so is simply must relate to the same thing right? #sarcasm

We must also irrationally conclude that Rev 12:9-12 is speaking of when Satan is bound for 1000 years too right, since Rev 20:2 calls Satan a dragon, just like is Rev 12:9! #sarcasm

Your reasoning really is just.. plain bad at times. Furthermore, Mat 13:24-30 states nothing about Satan being bound, its an illustration where an evil man (Satan), spreads weeds among the wheat and how the reapers gather up the weeds (not Satan) and burn the weeds (not Satan).

The Evil One, The Hostile One, The Devil departed in an absolute manner ‘apēlthen’ (completed action), but left behind his demons; Jesus’ Parable of the Wheat & the Tares (Mat 13.25)

 

[Apple7]

What do you do with 2 Cor 11:14, a post resurrection verse?

(2 Corinthians 11:14) "..And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.."

The context of 2 Cor 11 informs the reader that Satan is not present himself in the world, but, instead, his presentment is in his demons as detailed in the context of 2 Cor 11.12 – 15.

 

[Apple7]

We must also irrationally conclude that Rev 12:9-12 is speaking of when Satan is bound for 1000 years too right, since Rev 20:2 calls Satan a dragon, just like is Rev 12:9! #sarcasm

The Dragon, The Old Serpent, The Devil, Satan was bound ‘edēsen’ (completed action), cast into the abyss ‘ebalen’ (completed action), shut ‘ekleisen’ (completed action), and sealed ‘esphragisen’ (completed action), that he can no longer deceive people‘planēsē’(singular, completed action), by Jesus. Rev 20.1 – 3

 

[Apple7]

Even what you quoted does not fully agree with you. Again, you're trying to prove that Satan had ZERO power himself and was completely bound at the death of the Christ and only his influence was left once bound through his evil spirits (correct me if I'm wrong here). The above only expressed that Satan efforts were only ineffective "in relation to a Christian".

Moreover where in the verse does it say Satan was bound, and where does it state that Jesus at the at or just after his death made Satan idle (bring his power to nothing)? I see nothing in the verse stating that Jesus carried out making Satan who has the power of death nothing,....

The purpose for Jesus’ binding of Satan in Heb 2.14 is found in the juxtaposed verse following it…

Heb 2.15

και απαλλαξη τουτους οσοι φοβω θανατου δια παντος του ζην ενοχοι ησαν δουλειας

Kai apallaxē toutous hosoi phobō thanatou dia pantos tou zēn enochoi ēsan douleias

and might set these free, as many as by fear of death were subject to slavery through all the lifetime to live.

The key word here is ‘apallaxē’, which means ‘to set free’.

Satan is bound at the Cross so that we now have freedom and time to come to Jesus.

This time period is the 1,000 years, 42 months, 1260 days, times, time and ½ time.

To reinforce that the binding is to separate the devil from the people, is made manifest by reviewing the only other two Greek inflections of the word, as thus…

For as you go with your adversary to a judge, give pains in the way to be set free from him, that he not drag you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. (Luke 12.58)

Luke is quite clear that we need to be set free from the adversary lest we be thrown into prison.

Sound familiar?

Here’s how the other inflection is used in the NT…

so as even handkerchiefs or aprons from his skin to be brought onto those sick, and the diseases to be released from them, and the evil spirits to go out from them. But certain from the strolling Jews, exorcists, undertook to name the name of the Lord Jesus over those having evil spirits, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. (Acts 19.12 -13)

Again…the text discusses being set free from evil.

 

[Apple7]

...in fact 1 Cor 15:20 states this would be done after Jesus "hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power".

(1 Corinthians 15:20) "..But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death... Next, the end, when he [Christ] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.."

A review…

Heb 2.14 - 15

Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle (katargēsē) the one having the power of death, that is, the devil; and might set these free (apallaxē), as many as by fear of death were subject to slavery through all the lifetime to live.

The reader is informed that at Jesus’ death:

• The Devil is rendered entirely idle (katargēsē)
• Because The Devil has been rendered impotent, this then sets people free (apallaxē)
• No mention that The Devil has been defeated, only bound


Compare to where the exact term ‘katargēsē’ is used in 1Cor…

1 Cor 15.20 - 26

But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep. For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead; for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming. Then the end, after He delivers the kingdom to The God and Father, after He might render entirely idle (katargēsē) all rule and all authority and power. For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; the last hostile thing made to cease is death.


The reader is informed of an ordered sequence of events:

• The First Resurrection: Christ first, then The Righteous at His return (i.e. at the end of His reign)
• Binding of Satan: The Devil (singular) is rendered entirely idle and occurs BEFORE the reign of Christ (i.e. at Jesus’ death upon the Cross)
• Reigning Period: There is a period of Christ reigning (i.e. 1,000 years, etc) until all the enemies (plural, demons) are conquered
• The Second Resurrection: (Second Death – when Satan & death are defeated). This is the end of time – which occurs AFTER Jesus has delivered up the kingdom and AFTER Jesus had first bound Satan.



Again, we can see agreement in other scripture that Satan is first bound at the Cross – which is followed by the ‘1000 year’ reign of Christ, in which The Righteous are allowed to come to Christ without the direct blockage of Satan.