glorydaz
Well-known member
Neither does it change the fact that Peter finally saw what you refuse to see.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Jews And Gentiles Same Goal
- Thread starter Squeaky
- Start date
Neither does it change the fact that Peter finally saw what you refuse to see.
Rosenritter
New member
Right Divider, if someone makes an absolute statement there is an accepted method for challenging such a statement. If you were truly "rightly dividing" you should understand that this method involves demonstrating by counter-example, and that solid definitions are a requirement of right division and reason, not non-essential to be ignored.
I have given a well defined statement that allows fair opportunity to be disproved, should counter evidence actually be available. That you've chosen to mock this and state that it is "opinions" and "puffed up words" is only evidence that you have no evidence, that you lose by forfeit.
On the other hand, I am still waiting for definitions that I have inquired of you.
Rosenritter
New member
I'm not sure you understand the discussion here Glory. "We shall be saved, even as they" by "grace of the Lord Jesus Christ" is on the "one gospel" side, not the "multiple different gospels and paths to salvation" theory.
Rosenritter
New member
That I might attribute RD's actions with an analogy that indicates it as atypical to his normal mindset and as a temporary condition that might be resolved is not an insult.
Right Divider
Body part
More puffed up words. I've shown you the facts clearly from scripture and you refuse to accept them. That's too bad.
Others here can clearly see that I've shown you the facts and you rejected them. Too bad.
Right Divider
Body part
It seems that you think that Peter was dumb until Acts 15.
Right Divider
Body part
I said
Jesus never did teach the old testament law He changed it.
CHRIST CHANGED THE LAW
Heb 7:12-16
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest
16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:22
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
Heb 7:28
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Heb 8:7
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.
Gal 5:1-5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
James 2:10
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:12-13
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Matt 6:14-15
14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Gal 6:2-5
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For each one shall bear his own load.
Rom 2:12
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
Gal 6:2
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
(NKJ)
XXX Christ didnt do away with the idea of law. He just came to deliver us from the old testament law of sin and death. And He done it with the new testament law of Christ. One cant keep them both. One cant get an eye for an eye and turn the other cheek both at the same time.
Matt 5:17-18
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
(NKJ)
Matt 7:12
12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
(NKJ)
Matt 23:23
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
(NKJ)
Luke 10:26-28
26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"
27 So he answered and said," 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."
(NKJ)
Luke 16:16-17
16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
(NKJ)
Heb 10:1
1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
(NKJ)
Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
(NKJ)
Rom 10:4-5
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
(NKJ)
Acts 21:19-21
19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;
21 "but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
(NKJ)
[Act 10:9-16
9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.
10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance
11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth.
12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air.
13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."
14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."
15 And a voice [spoke] to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."
16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Uh oh, your frustration is showing.
I'm a bit amused, though, because when I first came here, I didn't understand about the two different gospels, either. I, at least, knew there was a difference, but, like many things in the Bible, I just put it up on a shelf and figured I would understand later. I could plainly see that "repent and be baptised" was not the same Gospel as what Paul preached.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm quite sure I do get it. There were the works of man on the one side....repent and be baptised, and obedience to the commandments. There is only believe unto righteousness on the other side.
Law on one side, and Grace on the other.
"We shall be saved, even as they" means the Jews could be saved by Paul's Gospel (by grace through faith). This is the last time Peter preached in Acts. He recognized what you can't seem to admit.
Rosenritter
New member
"Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" is confession of the Lord Jesus belief in what He is and what He represents, including (but not exclusively limited to) that God raised him from the dead for our salvation. There' s more than one way to approach the same subject.
And for the purpose of definition, that subject is "THE" Gospel.
* various adjectives such as "the gospel of peace" or "the gospel of his dear Son" and so on and so forth are not evidence of different gospels, any more than the 200+ names of God in the Bible are evidence of 200+ different Gods.
* The argument that "the Bible has many gospels" by a reasoning that "gospel" simply means "good news" and that there are thousands upon millions of different types of news that might be perceived as "good" is rejected as both spurious and absurd. That is not the sense that the scripture uses the term "gospel" or what is being talked about in this discussion.
* It is recognized that there may be different false gospels in the same sense that there are different false gods. The subject of this discussion is the true gospel. Paul specific speaks a curse against anyone that would preach any other gospel (Galatians 1:8-9); Paul would not curse the bearing of a true gospel, therefore any other gospel must be a false gospel.
Even this basic background puts the "multiple gospel" position in a precarious position. If there is more than one gospel, then whichever gospel it was that Paul did not bring to the Galatians is a false gospel upon which Paul pronounces a curse.
I have stated that the true gospel is unto salvation and eternal life and it is by the means of faith and belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior for the forgiveness of sins, and that with this gospel there is no respect to persons, either Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free. No gospel that bears fruit unto eternal life can possibly be a false gospel or a cursed gospel.
When others have started to define multiple gospels as if one contains one element and the other different elements, one for the Jew and one for the Gentile, it has already been demonstrated that the Jews received the same doctrine that the MAD attributed to the "Gentile gospel" and that the Gentiles also received the same doctrine which was attributed to the "Jewish gospel." This is where the silence and one-liners start to increase in intensity.
Regardless of when it is preached, how many people do the preaching, what particular modes of approach or analogy are used, or what events have come to pass or are yet to be fulfilled in the future, the gospel can be defined by its method and end results. Jew and Gentile enters into the Kingdom of God, Jew and Gentile enter into eternal life, Jew and Gentile have the same Lord and God and Savior and Christ. There is no inferior gospel of affirmative action for a lesser class of humanity, there is no "separate but equal" ruling of segregation here.
I would welcome any constructive attempt to address this outline and the points therein.
Rosenritter
New member
1. Repentance is not a "work of man" ... unless you are a Calvinist? There is no forgiveness of sin without repentance, and we all need forgiveness of sin. Forgiveness for sin without repentance was the very error that drove Luther into questioning the integrity of the Catholic church as they sold indulgences that purposed to grant forgiveness of sin even when the bearer of the indulgence refused repentance.
2. Those who lived within Jewish jurisdiction under its God-ordained government of the priesthood were subject to all of its laws and commandments; it was part of the Covenant God had made with Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai. Although Jesus lived in Judea as a Jew while under that law and did not have teach anyone to disobey the priesthood, obedience to the Old Covenant was not the gospel unto eternal life that Jesus preached. The thief on the cross was not saved through observance of any law.
3. Salvation has always been by faith; It is written, the just shall live by faith. The Old Covenant was not a covenant unto eternal life. I'm going to borrow someone's words here for a moment, since you seem to hold what I say under prejudice. Same scriptures, same Paul, same faith, same gospel.
There is no "one gospel of salvation on one side and a different gospel of salvation on the other." God requires our love and obedience always, and this should not be grievous for a child of our Father in heaven.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm beginning to wonder about you, Rosenritter. Right Divider is undoubtedly getting tired of having to repeat himself while seeing no willingness on your part to listen. In that, it's typical RD behaviour. Just as it's typical for those others of us you keep ignoring.
Try to stop the nitpicking and respond to the points being made. Just my advice, mind you.
glorydaz
Well-known member
As you use the word repentance, you're wrong. And the reason you're wrong is because you're on the wrong side of the Cross, Rosen. John's baptism of repentance was for the Jews, that they would believe Jesus was their Messiah. A change of mind.
Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(And you may as well stop using that tired excuse, "unless you are a Calvinist". I don't think you even know what they believe.)
Repentance is simply a change of mind.
The Gospel of Grace is very clear. Salvation is a GIFT....not of ourselves.
Even when we were dead in sins....we were quickened and saved by Grace.
We believe unto righteousness, we don't have to "repent and be baptised" as was preached pre-cross.
Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, the love of God is shed abroad on our heart by the Holy Spirit....included in the Gift of Salvation when we BELIEVE.
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
The obedience is the obedience of faith...not obedience to the commandments.
We are His workmanship, and He gets all the glory. So, of course, it isn't grievous. It's included in the Gift of Salvation. He works in us both to (will) desire and do His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Rosenritter
New member
Glory, you are clearly mistaken as to the necessity and meaning of repentance. It is not merely a "Jewish" thing and forgiveness of sin requires repentance. It is for all people, both Jew and Gentile, and without which we should surely perish.
Romans 2:4 KJV
(4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2 Corinthians 7:10 KJV
(10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I am beginning to think that you will argue almost anything just for the sake of arguing. I would not have imagined that anyone would be arguing against the necessity of repentance for salvation and forgiveness of sins. But here you are, arguing just the same.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I imagine you'd win more votes on that score than I would. :chuckle:
Every single one of those verses means to turn from unbelief to belief.
A change of mind, as I said.
The Jews believed in God, but they needed to change their mind about Jesus Christ being the Messiah.
The Gentiles didn't believe in God, so they needed to change their mind and believe.
Amen, Glorydaz
You'll NOT gain friends and influence people with that attitude.:doh: