Well, for us, it is not just "faith". It is tradition. Oral tradition.
Jewed
- Thread starter CherubRam
- Start date
Well, for us, it is not just "faith". It is tradition. Oral tradition.
Daniel1611
New member
Talmud:
"You are Adam ["man"], but goyim [gentiles] are not called Adam ["man"]." Kerithoth 6b
"The seed of the goyim is like an animal." Sanhedrin 74b
"All Gentile children are animals." Yebamoth 98a
Just to name a few.
I am rolling in the floor, chair!!! I'm chief Blind Wild Hawg of the Buffalowlife tribe, ROFLOL! So... you get to decide who you are. Cool, chair... from everything except the ancestral aspect boasting heritable claims to property rights that wouldn't survive probation. I only have to go back three generations. Odds are quite good that I could do that if race was an issue. The fact remains that you cannot provide 2k years of ancestral records. I contest the racial (ethnic) aspect of anyone's claim to heritable rights to Promised Land. My contest in your case was Deuteronomy 7:1, 2 reiterated by Ezra 9:1, 2. Do you have any 'who begat who's' to establish an unadulterated claim to ethnic rights to property?
I'm not telling you who you are... you aren't producing your ancestral records supporting the ancestral aspect of your claim. I respectfully give you the benefit of the doubt... but, the Land isn't yours without documentation. I'm the king of Scotland, remember? And, since you cannot produce the records for property rights, legally... you aren't officially who you say you are from an ethnic, ancestral perspective.
So, tell you what, chair... I'll return the invitation: You can join my Buffalowlife tribe... but, you have to cut the palm of your hand and swap blood in a hand shake. You won't believe the recipe for my kosher buffalo BBQ! It's not me claiming Cherokee tribal rights... it's you claiming ethnic tribal rights. As far as the rest of what is involved in declaring one's self a Jew... knock yourself out. Besides... its not folk like me you need to convince. Its the Muslims, prepared to light the fuse on the next Big Bang Theory when their mosque is out of your way.
My apology for any misunderstanding, IMJ. Rest assured, I am totally underwhelmed with Yoh's linguistic skills. I suggest maybe Yoh develop his Ancestry.com skills... Why am I not surprised he regresses when his feet get held to the fire? My molecular genetics book did't say a thing about God... therefore Yoh's God doesn't exist? My phone book doesn't show his name... therefore Yoh doesn't exist. Rather juvenile. All a diversion, a redundant, juvenile smoke and mirrors ploy. My questions were clear, while he acts like a child who had a candy bar yanked out of his hands.
Rather interesting, IMJ: I have learned here that Judaism and Talmudism are not synonymous. Is this correct? Well, unless one's a Talmudist.
kayaker
Astute point, IMJ. I was asked a similar question by a PhD Theologian colleague: "With all the ancients records and documents of many different religions... what makes you think the Bible is authentic?" Fair question, don't you think? My response: "All those four thousand years of recorded Hebrew 'who begat who's' is the mortar in the foundation of my faith."
Yeshua HaMashiach's arrival generation was prophesied in Genesis 4:24 KJV, "seventy and sevenfold," 77 generations. Try counting in Luke 3:38 KJV from God is #1, Adam is #2, Seth is #3... Of course, "sevenfold" (Genesis 4:15 KJV), and "seventy and sevenfold" (Genesis 4:24 KJV) are merely 'undesignated coincidences' according to my search of Jewish literature... With all due respect... Christianity is a little slack there as well. Such is a significant clue unravelling the mystery of the mark of Cain... Pandora's box, btw.
kayaker
if we calculate how many generations have passed since Jesus, is it less than a hundred ? how many generations, on average, are in a century ? :rapture:
Well hey patrick jane!
I do indeed admire your unbridled curiosity... a rare find. The number of years embraced within the OT is somewhere in the 4k range as I recall. I suspect there's considerable debate as to the specifics. But, for my purpose, 4k years sounds close enough. It's really the number of generations that's significant, and I've read disputes over the numbers of generations with no reference to the magical number, 77.
When I divided the assumed 4k years of OT history, by 77 prophesied generations (Genesis 4:24), I came up with 52 years per generation. Sounded like a reasonable number of years, and therefore a fit well within realistic parameters.
So, if it took around 4k years to generate 77 generations... and, we are about 2k years A.D.; then, we're about 39 generations into the future from Jesus' day. I suppose today we're roughly around 116 generations (77+39) from Adam... that'd be around 2 generations per century (corrected). A generation is about 52 years... 100 years in a century
Do keep in mind... 77 generations is not synonymous with "endless genealogies." I've had that thrown at me quite a number of times. 77 is a finite number. Those faiths waiting on Messiah to arrive... those are the one's who subscribe to "endless genealogies." God at the beginning in Luke 3:38, and Jesus at the end in Luke 3:23. God's chosen existed within those two parameters. God's chosen exist through faith in His Son beyond those parameters: our adoption papers are signed in Jesus' authentic blood. Praise His Holy Name... all 77 unadulterated generations, thereof... speaking of being baptized in the 'name' of the Father, the Son... and the Holy Spirit!
kayaker
thanks, i think alot. not much else at times. but i'm sure there is a scientific or genealogical formula for calculating generations. maybe even in The Bible. i'm also lazy, so i just think about looking things up. lol, but i just logically calculated about 4 maybe 5 generations per century. so, what do think the 77 generations means ? to avenge ? do you think it is telling an estimated time frame of Christ's Return ? maybe we are right around 77 ? spooky ? - :drum:
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anyone care to speculate ? don't be shy. well, i'm getting offline anyway. same bat channel, same bat time.
amen, brougham
Daniel1611
New member
Is Islam based on belief in the true God?
You're welcome patrick jane. Sorry I fell out on you last night...
The significance of 77 generations suggested in Genesis 4:24 prophesied the arrival generation of Messiah. Such was about a 4k year prophesy from just a handful of generations fresh out of the Garden of Eden.
So... does "seventy and sevenfold" refer to 77 generations? Cain's descendants fell off the OT radar in Genesis 4:24... then, there is no way to determine if 77-fold was referring to 77-generations without following another who-begat-who roster to find out if anything significant was going on in the future. The lengthy genealogy of the generations of Jesus comes to mind. If you will go to Luke 3:38, counting names (generations) from God is generation #1, Adam is generation #2, Seth #3... when you continue counting names for each generation, you will discover Jesus is the 77th generation from Almighty God (#1), inclusively. Therefore, the "seventy and sevenfold" (77) in Genesis 4:24 prophesied the arrival generation of Messiah around four thousand years before His generation even existed.
Furthermore, the One prophesied to arrive in the 77th generation from God (inclusively) is reasonably presumed to have rather remarkable power... including Divine knowledge of the mark of Cain from Almighty God, Himself. There are various reasonable attempts at unravelling that mystery... only One with divine knowledge received directly from God (who instituted the mark) could unveil this mystery. Jesus is the first one I've come across in the Bible who clearly understood the mark of Cain.
You would think Judaism or Catholicism would have figured out this mystery, and others, with their proclamations of antiquity suggesting divine, exclusive, intimate connections with Almighty God. But, it appears God decides what to reveal, to whom, and when... as God so chooses.
As far as how many years is one generation... and with utmost respect for CherubRam's post above, I might suggest considering the humanly possible parameters. A female achieves fertility as early as about age 12. Therefore, her pregnancy could result in the birth of a daughter who would achieve fertility also, at about age 12. The shortest length of one generation could be 12 years. That's about 8 generations per century (8 generations x 12 years per generation = 96 years).
Now, examining the possibly longest number of years... Sarah was 90 years old when Isaac was born or conceived, as I recall. Assuming Sarah was fertile at age 12, then 90 minus twelve (78) might be considered the longest length of a generation. However, we do have to keep in mind that Sarah miraculously conceived (v. immaculately), and Isaac's conception was no ordinary thing.
With due respect to CherubRam's astute post... you pose an interesting question: How old was the oldest mother in the Bible when she gave birth to her last child (without divine intervention)? When the Spirit moves you, patrick jane!
kayaker
very interesting. yes, God marked cain so that no one would kill him ? it's hard to follow the who begat who, unless we focus soley on that. but, have you heard more to the meaning of the mark ? -
just me, but i disagree with 70 years for 1 generation. however, i do think we are close to the end times. Jesus' Return ! Amen ! but every generation believes that, it seems. :rapture:
when did Jesus mention the mark of cain ? yes, women had children at a younger age then. we will really never know
It appears theologians commonly suggest the timespan between Adam and Jesus was about 4,026 years. There were 77 generations between God and Jesus (Luke 3:23-38). I'm certainly not debating CherubRam's figure of 70 years, and find his rendering quite interesting as you've clearly picked up on... end times.
You ask a really tough question patrick jane, regarding Jesus' knowledge of the mark of Cain. It is utterly imperative to keep in mind that Jesus judged no one (John 8:15 KJV, John 8:26 KJV). In other words, Jesus could not literally speak a person's name in condemnation (other than 'devil', already judged). Otherwise, Jesus would have invoked Judgment. I proffer such was the temptation of Jesus mentioned in John 8:6 KJV... that woman cast before Jesus was caught in the act, correct (John 8:3 KJV)? Referring to Mosaic Law (John 8:5 KJV) found in Leviticus 20:10 KJV; both that adulteress and adulterER should be stoned. The temptation was for Jesus to summon the dude she was caught in the act with.
Jesus has to power to judge, but the timing is established by His Father alone (Matthew 24:36 KJV). That a being said, Jesus never spoke the name 'Cain' during His ministry.
The 1611 KJV Bible most distinctly preserves the subtlety of Jesus' knowledge of the mark of Cain. Those who instigated the crucifixion were the primary focus of Jesus' conversation between John 8:12-47. Jesus was speaking directly to His unnamed detractors in John 8:44 KJV after those detractors said their Father was God (John 8:41 KJV). Since Jesus could not speak a name in condemnation, Jesus spoke in pronouns in v. 44 in similar subtle fashion as He doodled the names of those who'd had sex with that adulteress (John 8:6 KJV, John 8:7 KJV, John 8:8 KJV). My parentheses:
John 8:44 KJV "Ye (detractors) are of you father (literal) the devil (not God, John 8:41 KJV), and the lusts of your (literal) father (Satan) ye (detractors) will do."
Jesus and these detractors already knew they were descendants of Cain considering Matthew 23:34 KJV, Matthew 23:35 KJV. Who killed Abel, patrick jane? Take a closer look at Matthew 23:35 KJV remembering Jesus could not speak the name of Cain in condemnation. Continuing in John 8:44 KJV (my parentheses):
"He (_____) was a murderer from the beginning (Genesis 4:8 KJV), and abode not in the truth (Genesis 4:9 KJV), because there is no truth in him (_____). When he (_____) speaketh a lie (Genesis 4:9 KJV), he (_____) speaketh of his (_____) own : for he ('his' own, the devil) is a liar (Genesis 3:4 KJV), and the father of it (Genesis 3:5 KJV)."
Whose name fills those blanks, patrick jane? Jesus' detractors were the descendants of Cain, and Cain's father was not God (via Adam). This opens Pandora's box rattling the timbers in many faith paradigms. What did Jesus then tell those detractors?
John 8:45 KJV, John 8:46 KJV, with emphasis on John 8:47 KJV.
Jesus knew quite a bit more than most of us realize. Cain's descendants fell off the radar in Genesis 4:24 KJV... and, now here they are back on the scene 77 generations from God. Lots of unanswered questions! Greatest mystery ever written, our Bible.
kayaker
indeed. thanks because i've been looking for someone that discusses deeper meaning, and fearless dialogue. and i often tell people, best book ever, better than any movie. read, understand. nobody takes the time. or they think they've already learned enough. i did pick up on that while reading The Bible. i seem to have a gift of combining OT and NT and everything makes sense. anything i don't understand, i trust God. yes, it was quite clear who Jesus was talking about. either cain or satan itself. it's one of those countless details i notice and plan to pray and meditate more on. that's why i love reading The Bible over and over again. i don't take notes or mark in my Bible. i'm lazy. Thank God i retain quite a bit on my own. so many folks on TOL get bogged down with bickering, particular words, numbers, and translations. not much spiritual movement or progress. i'm 45, but i have been Blessed to take a few years off and do intense Prayer and Bible Study. it's a lifelong process. God has put me in a place that i prayed for. nothing selfish or material. just a contentment and peace that i didn't think was possible in my life. enough about me but ALL Glory to God ! ! ! - i gotta go soon, but i enjoy your conversation. i'll be back in a few. usually about this time each evening. are you Jewish ?
IMJerusha
New member
Do you have any idea when that was written? Back then, all goyim were pagans unless they had chosen to worship the God of Israel and had put aside all other false gods in which case God instructed them to be treated as native born Israelites. What does Scripture state about pagans? You can not just pick up Talmud, Babylonian at that, and read it without context. "Master race" is also not the same thing as God's chosen people which is why I asked you to point out where the Talmud states what you posted. Now, I'm not a supporter of Talmud but I'm also not going to use it to persecute Jewish people.
IMJerusha
New member
It would appear juvenile behavior abounds, your phone book notwithstanding.
I think that depends on whether one believes Judaism is a matter of faith or a matter of blood or both.