Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[randomvim]

First: Jesus is not a person of the trinity.
Secondly: We do not have three divine dieties, or, divinities that are all God Almighty. There is and has always been ONE divinity that is THE only true Diety, and that is Jehovah. Jesus is not and has never been equal to the Father and still has made his mark on humanity, and this does not mean that this situation is polytheistic. In the Jews' own scriptures Jehovah and His Son appear in the texts. (E.g., Psalm 2:2-12; Psalm 110:1-7; Isaiah 11:1-5; Isaiah 61:1,2.) To the Jews this was not polytheistic.

Next, your number 2: Jesus, truly, is not God. He is a creature of less divine nature, indeed. Every person ever created is of lesser nature than Jehovah.

Your number 3: Jesus died for our sins after an extensive history of being involved with humanity. He CREATED humans (Colossians 1:16), with his Father's power and authorization of course, and he afterward stood in as his Father's spokesman to all of the ancients. He was totally involved in everything humans ever did. And Jesus and Jehovah are not "unknown beings." They both are explained in the Bible. It is all there for anyone to see. Why would anyone say that Jesus gave up his life unwillingly? There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest such a thing. Your issues are dissolving before your eyes.

1. I was not talking about a trinity. Father is a god and appears, through your comments, that Jesus is a god. Then you have Holy Spirit. Well mentioned and respected for past 2k years or so since "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy [Spirit]." but you say there is no trinity. So we potentially have 3 gods that existed before time and angels and everything else. why would this make sense? because despite saying Jesus is not a god ( let alone the God)...for having everything that The Father has but unknown percentage of unknown thing(s) that are not the same, Jesus would be a whole lot like a diety by description.

2. of lesser nature...so lets consider what Jesus is. Sure not human, but maybe still part human and part divine? This reflects on what I say above and earlier. You describe Jesus as a diety who created humans but he is not the creator of all things or considered a god? there is no logic in that. If Jesus is not the god or any god and not a diety then...Jesus is comparable to either Hurcules or some other diety in human history that is worshipped but not glorified.

For Jews. Jesus was just a man. nothing else. either a prophet or liar because he sure would not be their messiah.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-messiah

If their Messiah was not Jesus and would still be human, then Id still have to wonder what Jesus is.

3. Things dont appear to be as you speak or what you speak does not appear to be as things are or was.

The reason I said unknown beings is because your explanations are not spanning out.

Otherwise lets consider, " why has thou foresaken me?" Jesus is quoted in saying it. its in the Bible. Athiests and other theists have used it to identify that Jesus was not a willing party. I do not believe this, but may be argued from a standpoint.

 

[freelight]

What is Jesus,....depends on who you ask eh?

What is Jesus,....depends on who you ask eh?

1. A fine line between correct or incorrect context amd definition too.
http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed
distinct is not the same as seperate. 3 distinct persons is not the same as 3 seperate individual persons.

Okay, that is fine,...have your 3 distinct persons within a compounded 'God'. Is 'God' an infinite individual BEING? 'God' is One. Orthodox Judaism does NOT accept a tri-une Godhead. Various creeds have their 'professions' but that is all they are,... formulations, descriptions, assumptions.

2. I asked what Jesus is. Not who. God the Father is a Divine being, alpha and omega. "I Am". If Jesus is not the same, then what is he?

Well, you know various created creeds over the centuries have been 'crafted' to explain WHAT and WHO Jesus is,....asking 'what', not sure where you want to go, since its assumed he is both Man and God, a unique god-man of sorts, and this gets more confusing with developed Christology adding more to the 'mix', and all the dogma-contests and church councils splitting hairs over this and that. As far as Jesus and YHWH being different distinct personalities,...we've held that here in the entire thread, and other threads, from a Unitarian point of view. Jesus was Unitarian btw....a devout Jew holding to the Shema. He honored his God and Father, and encourages us TOO to worship his God and Father. YHWH is Spirit.

On another end of the spectrum, I can trinitize 'God' with the best of em,...but I choose for practical reasons to hold more to a Unitarian view, relationally speaking. Otherwise, my liberal eclectic Christology also includes Essene, Gnostic, Spiritualist, New Thought, New Age, Progressive and Universalist nuances and perspectives,...I dont think you can pigeonhole Jesus into any one religious slot, as much about him likely already has been distorted, morphed, modified and molded to fit a prefigured or crafted 'image', especially Christologically speaking.

I know of many other 'versions' of Jesus per different religious schools outside of a traditional-orthodox Christian 'definition' that could be just as sound, logical and useful, as other 'paintings' of him, since all use their own colours and canvas as they 'build' their own theology,...and I have nothing against creative license - the fact is, all we have is some idea, concept, image of Jesus in our own minds, beyond some personal religious experience of 'faith', in this person we call Jesus, or as some life-giving spirit, redeemer, savior, cosmic-christ figure.

Out of many different opinions of Jesus, I see nothing wrong with a more Unit-Arian view of Jesus, and no real GAINS or advantage by holding an orthodox Christology....which is deemed 'orthodox' by the church-state powers that sanctioned it as such. It is by their word only, so called 'orthodox'.

See: The Arian Catholic Church

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Your number 3: Jesus died for our sins after an extensive history of being involved with humanity. He CREATED humans (Colossians 1:16), with his Father's power and authorization of course, and he afterward stood in as his Father's spokesman to all of the ancients. He was totally involved in everything humans ever did. .

That can not be right.

Jesus was born through Mary, and it is creepy doctrine to think that a Heavenly being could be condensed to being a little baby.

 

[randomvim]

Okay, that is fine,...have your 3 distinct persons within a compounded 'God'. Is 'God' an infinite individual BEING? 'God' is One. Orthodox Judaism does NOT accept a tri-une Godhead. Various creeds have their 'professions' but that is all they are,... formulations, descriptions, assumptions.



Well, you know various created creeds over the centuries have been 'crafted' to explain WHAT and WHO Jesus is,....asking 'what', not sure where you want to go, since its assumed he is both Man and God, a unique god-man of sorts, and this gets more confusing with developed Christology adding more to the 'mix', and all the dogma-contests and church councils splitting hairs over this and that. As far as Jesus and YHWH being different distinct personalities,...we've held that here in the entire thread, and other threads, from a Unitarian point of view. Jesus was Unitarian btw....a devout Jew holding to the Shema. He honored his God and Father, and encourages us TOO to worship his God and Father. YHWH is Spirit.

On another end of the spectrum, I can trinitize 'God' with the best of em,...but I choose for practical reasons to hold more to a Unitarian view, relationally speaking. Otherwise, my liberal eclectic Christology also includes Essene, Gnostic, Spiritualist, New Thought, New Age, Progressive and Universalist nuances and perspectives,...I dont think you can pigeonhole Jesus into any one religious slot, as much about him likely already has been distorted, morphed, modified and molded to fit a prefigured or crafted 'image', especially Christologically speaking.

I know of many other 'versions' of Jesus per different religious schools outside of a traditional-orthodox Christian 'definition' that could be just as sound, logical and useful, as other 'paintings' of him, since all use their own colours and canvas as they 'build' their own theology,...and I have nothing against creative license - the fact is, all we have is some idea, concept, image of Jesus in our own minds, beyond some personal religious experience of 'faith', in this person we call Jesus, or as some life-giving spirit, redeemer, savior, cosmic-christ figure.

Out of many different opinions of Jesus, I see nothing wrong with a more Unit-Arian view of Jesus, and no real GAINS or advantage by holding an orthodox Christology....which is deemed 'orthodox' by the church-state powers that sanctioned it as such. It is by their word only, so called 'orthodox'.

See: The Arian Catholic Church

1. Tinity is not mine. it existed long before me. Just pointing out what I see are errors. If a person is missguided or not understanding that an orthodox christian creed supports trinity instead of unitarian view point (or vise versa) then it is possible for same missreading to occur with other readingd, like Torah for example. Empty cup.

2. Nice paragraphs that address but not answers the question to what Jesus is. I'll go ahead and go over my thoughts.

a. Trinity exists, Jesus is God and willing party in all matters.

b. trinity does not exist, Jesus is still a diety that is worshipped, we dont have unitarianism but polythiesm. worship of more than one diety. Even if Jesus is an angel or something else - his worship defines polythiesm.

c. If we follow orthodox Jewish description as it has been suggested on this thread, Jesus is not a diety or creature that made humans but he himself was only human. As that was expected of Jewish messiah.

But now we get into the question. if Jesus was not just human, then how do we accept 1 point of view over another while both (Jesus is God or Jesus is divine creature) argue againat claimed Jewish teaching?

 

[randomvim]

That can not be right.

Jesus was born through Mary, and it is creepy doctrine to think that a Heavenly being could be condensed to being a little baby.

Why condensed if there was no "body" to condense ?

Interesting point however. How might one exist prior to their own human existence?

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[KingdomRose]

That can not be right.

Jesus was born through Mary, and it is creepy doctrine to think that a Heavenly being could be condensed to being a little baby.

Creepy? Jesus said that he was with the Father before the world was (John 17:5). Then he was born on Earth to Mary (Luke 1:35). That is the way it was, as laid out for us in the Scriptures. Yet you call it creepy?

 

[KingdomRose]

1. Tinity is not mine. it existed long before me. Just pointing out what I see are errors. If a person is missguided or not understanding that an orthodox christian creed supports trinity instead of unitarian view point (or vise versa) then it is possible for same missreading to occur with other readingd, like Torah for example. Empty cup.

2. Nice paragraphs that address but not answers the question to what Jesus is. I'll go ahead and go over my thoughts.

a. Trinity exists, Jesus is God and willing party in all matters.

b. trinity does not exist, Jesus is still a diety that is worshipped, we dont have unitarianism but polythiesm. worship of more than one diety. Even if Jesus is an angel or something else - his worship defines polythiesm.

c. If we follow orthodox Jewish description as it has been suggested on this thread, Jesus is not a diety or creature that made humans but he himself was only human. As that was expected of Jewish messiah.

But now we get into the question. if Jesus was not just human, then how do we accept 1 point of view over another while both (Jesus is God or Jesus is divine creature) argue againat claimed Jewish teaching?

Jesus is not worshipped as God Almighty, therefore his being God's SON does not polytheism make. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is worshipped---Jehovah, the Father and God of Jesus (John 17:3; John 20:17). Jesus is given the respect and honor that a powerful, important person would receive, esp. the Son of God.

 

[drbrumley]

Jesus is not worshipped as God Almighty, therefore his being God's SON does not polytheism make. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is worshipped---Jehovah, the Father and God of Jesus (John 17:3; John 20:17). Jesus is given the respect and honor that a powerful, important person would receive, esp. the Son of God.

Spoken like a muslim

 

[Bright Raven]

Jesus is not worshipped as God Almighty, therefore his being God's SON does not polytheism make. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is worshipped---Jehovah, the Father and God of Jesus (John 17:3; John 20:17). Jesus is given the respect and honor that a powerful, important person would receive, esp. the Son of God.

John 20:28 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

28 Thomas responded to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

 

[drbrumley]

John 20:28 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

28 Thomas responded to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

I love [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] response to this....

My Lord,and Oh My God!!!!

You can't make this stuff up

 

[randomvim]

Jesus is not worshipped as God Almighty, therefore his being God's SON does not polytheism make. There is only ONE TRUE GOD that is worshipped---Jehovah, the Father and God of Jesus (John 17:3; John 20:17). Jesus is given the respect and honor that a powerful, important person would receive, esp. the Son of God.

Speak for yourself. A good number of people do and Christianity as a whole does ( Catholics, Greek orthodox, Lutheran, Baptists, etc.)

I am looking at this from an outsiders perspective and even the descriptions provided here make it seem that Jesus would be if not should be worshipped. But I have no other way compare or contrast for this diety you say is not a god.

Perhaps I am confused between posters, but my response to freelight uses the term diety to distinguish polytheism in a paticular instance. I dont think all dieties need to be worshipped (or worshipped the same as a main god) to fit definition.

As you have stated. Son of God. Would this not make Jesus a god or part god?



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[KingdomRose]

Speak for yourself. A good number of people do and Christianity as a whole does ( Catholics, Greek orthodox, Lutheran, Baptists, etc.)

I am looking at this from an outsiders perspective and even the descriptions provided here make it seem that Jesus would be if not should be worshipped. But I have no other way compare or contrast for this diety you say is not a god.

Perhaps I am confused between posters, but my response to freelight uses the term diety to distinguish polytheism in a paticular instance. I dont think all dieties need to be worshipped (or worshipped the same as a main god) to fit definition.

As you have stated. Son of God. Would this not make Jesus a god or part god?



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I do not say that Jesus is not "a god." Saint John said that he was. However, that does not mean that Jesus is God Almighty. There is a big difference between God Almighty and all other gods. Don't you realize that "god" simply means a mighty, powerful, important being? Jesus might be considered "a god," but that doesn't mean that two Gods are worshipped. No---only Jehovah, the Father, is God Almighty. He is the only one I worship as God Almighty. Everyone else in the universe comes under Him.

 

[Bright Raven]

I do not say that Jesus is not "a god." Saint John said that he was. However, that does not mean that Jesus is God Almighty. There is a big difference between God Almighty and all other gods. Don't you realize that "god" simply means a mighty, powerful, important being? Jesus might be considered "a god," but that doesn't mean that two Gods are worshipped. No---only Jehovah, the Father, is God Almighty. He is the only one I worship as God Almighty. Everyone else in the universe comes under Him.

Do you worship Jesus in an manner?

 

[Bright Raven]

Do you worship Jesus in an manner?

Yes I do. As God.

 

[randomvim]

I do not say that Jesus is not "a god." Saint John said that he was. However, that does not mean that Jesus is God Almighty. There is a big difference between God Almighty and all other gods. Don't you realize that "god" simply means a mighty, powerful, important being? Jesus might be considered "a god," but that doesn't mean that two Gods are worshipped. No---only Jehovah, the Father, is God Almighty. He is the only one I worship as God Almighty. Everyone else in the universe comes under Him.

Same could have been said for Zues.

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[randomvim]

Yes I do. As God.

Did you just answer your own question?

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[freelight]

Touch points..............

Touch points..............

1. Tinity is not mine. it existed long before me. Just pointing out what I see are errors. If a person is missguided or not understanding that an orthodox christian creed supports trinity instead of unitarian view point (or vise versa) then it is possible for same missreading to occur with other readingd, like Torah for example. Empty cup.

All things are possible, but more or less proven or supported with further research and evidence. Scriptures are used to support BOTH Unitarian and Trinitarian views, and more. Again to most all Orthodox Jews, their Messiah is not 'God', neither expected to be demi-god or 'God-Man'. Some heterodox views within Judaism may accept the Messiah having some kind of 'divinity', but thats a matter of interpretation. The Kaballah also has some wonderful teachings regarding, particularly the 'Adam-Kadmon'.

2. Nice paragraphs that address but not answers the question to what Jesus is. I'll go ahead and go over my thoughts.

About any question, I guess it depends on who you ask - a friend always used to say that, and hey...if the shoe fits..... - always a fun one to fall back on.

a. Trinity exists, Jesus is God and willing party in all matters.

b. trinity does not exist, Jesus is still a diety that is worshipped, we dont have unitarianism but polythiesm. worship of more than one diety. Even if Jesus is an angel or something else - his worship defines polythiesm.

c. If we follow orthodox Jewish description as it has been suggested on this thread, Jesus is not a diety or creature that made humans but he himself was only human. As that was expected of Jewish messiah.

But now we get into the question. if Jesus was not just human, then how do we accept 1 point of view over another while both (Jesus is God or Jesus is divine creature) argue againat claimed Jewish teaching?

Ok, I'm just taking some small stabs at this, challenging as it may be, as I can write lengthy dissertations when on a roll. A Trinity may or may not exist, as far as 'Deity' being a 'Godhead', a company of divine personalities,...but 'God' who is ONE and ALL...certainly contains all that exists,...personalities and more. There are aspects of Deity that are also non-personal.

True Unitarianism is NOT polytheism, since the Son of God is not worshiped as a 'God' besides 'God'(making 2 Gods). Jesus is NOT worshipped as 'God Almighty', a worship only reserved for The Father ALONE. The Father retains eternal primacy over all things and beings, and is therefore 'The Most High God', 'God' properly speaking, in originality, primacy, absoluteness, eternity, infinity, having all 3 of the classic OMNIs per classical theism. Only God the Infinite Spirit, the Sumpreme Being, The Absolute itself, being incorporeal is True DEITY.- all else are its offspring, its creation, its individuated expressions. The 'Son' of God while being begotten by God, is NOT God. - this distinction goes without saying, even by Trinitarians, although they would place Jesus within the Godhead, pertaining to his assumed eternally divine status as 'God the Son' while only claiming his human personality was 'begotten', or had a beginning in time. As you may know, the Trinitarians went ballastic on Arius, because he taught there was a time when the Son was not. This got their wigs in a tissy twist and the rest is history

There are many different views or schools of Christology,....pertaining to Jesus humanity and divinity, describing each, how they are related or appropriated, his very constitution,...a complex thing if you're merging or marrying divinity with humanity. Therefore within the whole Judeo-Christian theological context....the 'Messiah' can be anything between a spectrum of wholly human to wholly divine, and everything inbetween via his incarnation and all the other details of how both 'natures' are married into one person, and so on (with every nuance of difference or heresy inbetween!).

In any case,....I still see no advantage of a Trinitarian View of Jesus over/against a Unitarian one ( I can just as well enjoy an Essene, Gnostic, Spiritualist, Buddhist/Hindu version, New Age Avatar 'version' of Jesus as well, and I do...since I'm eclectic, and haven't locked Jesus into a theological box). I can only accept what I am led to believe about Jesus being intellectually coherent and rational (as well as probable), and what spiritual insight/discernment or personal religous experience might grant me, and that is all, while ever remaining open to learn/discover more, by progressive revelation.

I think one can hold to either view (or any other view that is true and consistent with the ethic, value and meaning of Jesus the Christ and his teaching), and still be a follower of Jesus (a devotee of the Christ-way), although one's religious life and understanding at certain levels and dimensions may differ as affected by each particular view, tradtion or school of Christ that one adopts. - naturally so

 

[KingdomRose]

Do you worship Jesus in an manner?

In any manner? Being that "worship" has many levels....yes. The Greek word is proskyneo and expresses the thought of OBEISANCE. The term is used in connection with a slave's doing obeisance to a king (Matt.18:26) as well as the act Satan suggested to Jesus when he offered Him all the kingdoms of the world (Matt.4:8,9). So if Jesus had done obeisance, or, "worshipped" Satan, he would have been saying that he considered himself in submission to Satan and Satan's servant. However, the CONTEXT determines in what way "obeisance" is to be understood. Such bowing down could at times simply be an act of respect or of courteous regard toward another person (Genesis 19:1,2; 33:1-6; 37:9,10)

It is in that way that we do obeisance to Jesus.

Our worship to Jehovah is the obeisance we give to Him as God Almighty, to whom no other individual in the universe can equate themselves.

 

[Bright Raven]

In any manner? Being that "worship" has many levels....yes. The Greek word is proskyneo and expresses the thought of OBEISANCE. The term is used in connection with a slave's doing obeisance to a king (Matt.18:26) as well as the act Satan suggested to Jesus when he offered Him all the kingdoms of the world (Matt.4:8,9). So if Jesus had done obeisance, or, "worshipped" Satan, he would have been saying that he considered himself in submission to Satan and Satan's servant. However, the CONTEXT determines in what way "obeisance" is to be understood. Such bowing down could at times simply be an act of respect or of courteous regard toward another person (Genesis 19:1,2; 33:1-6; 37:9,10)

It is in that way that we do obeisance to Jesus.

Our worship to Jehovah is the obeisance we give to Him as God Almighty, to whom no other individual in the universe can equate themselves.

Do you worship Jesus as you worship the Father?

 

[KingdomRose]

Same could have been said for Zues.

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Yes, exactly. But I don't worship Zeus. I worship Jehovah.