JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[Jerry Shugart]

No excuse, it's the truth, it clearly says that God gave Jesus Christ revelation.

Yes, after the Lord Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.

But you continue to run and hide from the verses which I quoted from the 21st and 22nd chapters of the book of the Revelation.

Are those chapters not in your Bible? Or is it that you just refuse to believe what is written there?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Both

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Before the Lord Jesus was made a little lower than the angels He was in the form of God:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil.2:5-6).​

The Greek word translated "form" means "the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when those in heaven will see the ONE on the "Throne of God and of the Lamb" they will see both the Lord Jesus and God at the same time because He is God:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

Have you ever wondered why there is only ONE who is sitting on the throne of God and of the Lamb?

I wonder more about the when.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Mark 9:7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is My beloved Son. Listen to Him"

John 10:30 I and my Father are one

Dt. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I wonder more about the when.

Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Heb. 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Php. 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

He ain't no SELF Appointed God! He's the Divine, Worthy, King of Kings and Lord of Lords!​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I wonder more about the when.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" (1 Cor.15:24).​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Mark 9:7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is My beloved Son. Listen to Him"

John 10:30 I and my Father are one

Dt. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

John 17:8
For I have given them the words You gave Me, and they have received them. They knew with certainty that I came from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

John 17:11
I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.

John 17:20
I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,

John 17:23
I in them and You in Me--that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.

:Wamba:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" (1 Cor.15:24).​

Yup.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Before the Lord Jesus was made a little lower than the angels He was in the form of God:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil.2:5-6).​

The Greek word translated "form" means "the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when those in heaven will see the ONE on the "Throne of God and of the Lamb" they will see both the Lord Jesus and God at the same time because He is God:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

Have you ever wondered why there is only ONE who is sitting on the throne of God and of the Lamb?

I wonder more about the when.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" (1 Cor.15:24).​

Yup.

 

[KingdomRose]

What's to explain, they refer to two different immortal beings.

One is the Most High, one is less high.

I agree, but many here on these threads say that the two are the same person.

 

[KingdomRose]

Psalm 110
Of David. A psalm.

1
(The Lord / Yahwah) says to my lord.

The name Yahwah has been replaced with (The Lord.)

That is exactly right. The name of God, YHWH, commonly rendered "Jehovah", has been taken out of the Scriptures and "Lord" has been inserted where YHWH should be. You probably know that anywhere "LORD" appears, in all upper-case letters, that is where "YHWH" should be.

 

[KingdomRose]

Isaiah 61:1-2New International Version (NIV)
The Year of the Lord’s Favor

61 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[a]
2
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,...

And again the names Yahwah has been replaced with Lord.

Yes. Thanks for bringing that out. In the original Hebrew text "YHWH" appears where it has been rendered "the Sovereign LORD." So YHWH anointed "me" (which Jesus applied to himself, at Luke 4:18-21), being, as I said, Jesus, thus showing that two different persons were involved. YHWH is the superior person, the one doing the anointing and the sending.

 

[daqq]

John certainly understood that He who said "I come quickly" was the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by his words that follow:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." (Rev.22:20).​

These are the very last words found in the Bible and that stresses their importance.

Again, that is Yohanan Eliyahu, who TESTIFIES of all things whatsoever he saw and heard, (Rev 1:2, John 1:15, 32, 34-36), and therefore he says, "Come, Master Ι̅Η", (for Yohanan is himself the forerunner who comes before the Master, if you will receive it, but until now you have repeatedly refused to receive it, lol).

 

[beameup]

The kingdom of God is within us

Greatly misunderstood and mistranslated.
Jesus was announcing that the Kingdom of
God was in their presence, as Jesus, being the
King, the Kingdom was "in their midst".

 

[beameup]

That is exactly right. The name of God, YHWH, commonly rendered "Jehovah", has been taken out of the Scriptures and "Lord" has been inserted where YHWH should be. You probably know that anywhere "LORD" appears, in all upper-case letters, that is where "YHWH" should be.

Sometimes it is "Lord GOD" (all caps)

 

[KingdomRose]

Those verses are a prophecy which speaks of what the Lord Jesus would do after He was made in the likeness of men:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil.2:5-6).​

Before he was made flesh He was "in the form of God." The Greek word translated "form" means "the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when those in heaven will see the ONE on the "Throne of God and of the Lamb" they will see both the Lord Jesus and God at the same time because the Lord Jesus is God:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

The Lord Jesus is now in the eternal kingdom and He cannot be seen by men because our flesh and blood bodies are not equipped to see eternal things (1 Cor.4:18). And here how He is described as He sits in the eternal kingdom at the present time:

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1 Tim.1:16-17).​

The Lord Jesus is the only God.

Well, your view of Rev.22:3,4 can be taken another way. It wouldn't necessarily mean that only one Person is on the throne, and it certainly COULD mean that there are possibly two thrones. It's not very clear, and other scriptures in Revelation might give us pause as to that. Let's see....at Rev.3:21 Jesus talks of having sat down on his Father's throne, after returning to heaven, even though there are many scriptures that say that he stood or sat down at his Father, God's, right hand. (Acts 2:33; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Heb.1:3 & 8:1; IPeter 1:13) So could what he says at Rev.3:21 have the meaning of receiving power and authority FROM his Father?

It is interesting that in chapter 4 John sees God's throne. It says that there was A throne, and ONE was seated upon it. So this must be YHWH/Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus. Jesus is referred to, of course, as the Lamb, and he is pictured as "standing in the midst of the throne" at Rev.5:6. But we can be fairly sure that the Lamb and God are not the same Person, because at Rev.5:13 it says "To the One sitting on the throne AND to the Lamb be the blessing," etc. So apparently it is God's throne, and the Lamb is someone who comes and goes from the throne, or, as I said, maybe he just gets his authority for his kingship FROM the throne of his Father & doesn't literally sit ON the throne. Indeed, it speaks of him STANDING in the midst of the throne.

So, I looked through the entire book of Revelation, and I see that definitely the throne that John saw was the throne of God/Jehovah. The Lamb was seen on or standing in the midst of the throne, which must mean something other than that he is also Jehovah, because they are seen as two distinct Persons and Jesus' disciples always thought of him as being at the right hand of God. I conclude from this brief examination that it can't be taken literally that God and the Lamb are seated on God's throne at the same time. God always is on the throne, and Jesus is plenty busy doing various things even away from the throne. I really think that, rather than literally sitting or standing on the throne with God, he is mentioned as doing these things to show his close association with God, and to emphasize the Source of his authority.

I Timothy 1:16-17 refer to Jesus Christ in verse 16 and then to his Father, Jehovah in verse 17.

 

[KingdomRose]

Very simply John 1:1 We are tri- -une. The half you are thinking of, we embrace.

I'm not sure as a JW you'd be able to grasp what has been said after 200 threads on the matter. Hasn't all that will ever be said, been said???

:idunno:

Maybe you still don't get it. This thread is for people who think that Jesus is Jehovah. We're not talking about the trinity right now. Now would you answer my question about those two scriptures without, possibly, bringing your well-used verse from John 1 into it? It really doesn't apply here in this examination of Psalm 110 and Isaiah 61.

 

[KingdomRose]

This subject has already been covered in a previous thread of the same title.
You failed to even consider other OT references presented. You stubbornly insist
on "plucking" only two references from the Old Testament. JWs are "master pluckers".

I'm not "plucking" anything to win an argument concerning the trinity doctrine. I asked a question about these two scriptures in particular because I want someone who thinks Jesus is Jehovah to explain how that would ring true in the light of Psalm 110 and Isaiah 61. That's all. A simple request. And NO ONE HAS ANSWERED IT.

 

[daqq]

Greatly misunderstood and mistranslated.
Jesus was announcing that the Kingdom of
God was in their presence, as Jesus, being the
King, the Kingdom was "in their midst".

You are simply rejecting the Testimony of Messiah once again by trying to subvert what he plainly says in Luke 17:21, (and it has already been proven to you more than once). In their "midst", (among them), would not be "entos", (which is "inside" as used in Luke 17:21), but would rather be "mesos", exactly as it is used in Matthew 18:20. You are exchanging the meanings of these two words to suit your false interpretations; they are not used in the scripture the way you have altered their meanings, the contexts in which they are employed show that you are in error.

 

[beameup]

I'm not "plucking" anything to win an argument concerning the trinity doctrine. I asked a question about these two scriptures in particular because I want someone who thinks Jesus is Jehovah to explain how that would ring true in the light of Psalm 110 and Isaiah 61. That's all. A simple request. And NO ONE HAS ANSWERED IT.

You must take all related portions of scripture together to get the "whole picture".
Instead, you do the Watchtower thing of plucking a verse to create a false impression of some kind of "enigma". The true God cannot be understood with human wisdom and human logic; it requires the intervention of the Holy Spirit to even begin to understand God.

So, take your phony premise and your JW "plucking" and try to fool someone who is ignorant of God or his Word.