KingdomRose
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A Son of God would eventually grow up to be a Son of God. Er, I am still my father's daughter, even though I am all grown up.
JESUS IS NOT YHWH
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A Son of God would eventually grow up to be a Son of God. Er, I am still my father's daughter, even though I am all grown up.
KingdomRose
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KingdomRose
New member
I answered that. It took four tries to post my answer, since I kept getting shut down completely.
KingdomRose
New member
I had a previous full response to your post which got lost. Here is a second go around. Not all biblical Unitarians reject the resurrection, even if some may 'spiritualize' the event,....some are very traditional-orthodox Christian on this matter. Its a fact that many modern progressive christians of different denominations take a more figurative/allegorical approach to scripture, even the 'virgin birth'....so this newer dispensation of progressive thought has been popularizing.
As in my former post on 'resurrection',...we can definitely say the Catholic Arian Church does teach Jesus resurrection in the Spirit, but this Arian church does NOT represent the whole of Unitarian Christianity, it being only one Arian branch or school of thought. This church while standing upon the seminal work and theology of Arius, has modern innovations as well since we've come along way since the 4th century.....so these modern innovations and progressive adaptations of knowledge-integration are to be expected.
This is certainly what Catholic apologetics would be spoon feeding you from within the walls of their own crib. Others beg to differ here and offer historical supports against this view. As I've share before, I dont think 'God' cares whether your 'Unitarian' or 'Trinitarian' because he looks at your heart and judges your character, although some theologies are more rational and useful than others.
The 'Resurrection' deserves its own thread, since this is dovetailing off topic here. You can only speculate, assume or choose to believe it happened, in whatever way you assume, but thats it. How this affects or is translated in your soul, is what matters....the subjective process, which is a transformation. Still, Jesus was raised in the Spirit, and this illustrates our own lifting of consciousness heavenward.
Theres a good measure of 'religious fiction' in many religious texts, the Bible not excluded. Which fictions, mythology, embellishments, interpolatioins or redactions do you enjoy from your 'scriptures'?- I dont need dogmas (unless they are true and universal propositions), while I can entertain, explore and coordinate any number of points of view or insights on any given subject at any moment. Reality is being translated thru multi-mediums simultaneously.....multidimensional
This is to Nihilo and everybody:
Do we agree that Jesus gave up (sacrificed) his own human life so that the world of mankind could attain to eternal life? If he was resurrected in a physical body, would he not have TAKEN BACK his sacrifice of his human life? And what kind of body did he have before he came to the earth? He was "in God's form"---that is, SPIRIT. (Phil.2:6; John 4:24) So when he was resurrected from death he left his human existence and went back to what he was before he came here. As has been said, the Scriptures say clearly that he was raised as a spirit.
"So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45, NASB)
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18, NASB)
It is rather silly to think that Christ doesn't have a "real" body now. Spirit bodies are just as real as physical ones. We just can't see them.
KingdomRose
New member
The Holy Spirit is a FORCE emanating from God. It is His own spirit or force, and to say that someone lied to it is like saying that someone lied to God Himself. Jehovah does everything with His force. He creates, He speaks, He listens. When Ananias lied he lied to God, the Father, Jehovah. One can test Jehovah, since it is His Spirit that is being tested. The Spirit is connected, if you will, to Jehovah just as our breath is connected to us. He creates and acts with His spirit, and of course we don't do that with our breath. But same idea.
Can you lie to a "force", KR? Or do you lie to a person?
You just sound like, not a Christian. :idunno:I noticed earlier that you are beginning to sound too much like the gestapo squad.
Have a nice life.
Quote-unquote "
"
Sigh.
Look, you've testified that you believe that the Lord is risen, without qualification, so I accept you as a sibling, because I believe that too.
That you can't accept the Trinity is God, and that God is the Trinity, is too bad, but somewhere your faith in the Resurrection must bridge between you and the Church, because the Church is the lasting mark upon the earth that the Resurrection is nonfiction, and that Church has been Trinitarian from the earliest, from the first generation, right from AD 33 or AD 30 or whenever the post-Ascension Pentecost occurred.
I know you disagree. I can only pray that you come around. Once you can at least entertain the notion that the Apostles were Trinitarians, then you will see that the New Testament is full of references to Him, not only the more obvious passages like Matthew 28:19 (KJV) and 2nd Corinthians 13:14 (KJV) and 2nd Peter 1:2 (KJV).
Faith seeking understanding.
No. One God. The Trinity.
:dizzy: What's the difference between God and A god.
Yes.
No.
Me too.
I believe more than this.
The risen Lord was and is more than this.
I believe you, what did you say?
You just sound like, not a Christian. :idunno:
Quote-unquote "
Can you show me, even from your own Catholic Bible, where the definition of Christian includes a necessity to believe and confess your creed(s) or any of your mother church's dogmatic rulings? Your mother church has accomplished nothing more than the hijacking of the faith of the first century and the original faith of Messiah and his Apostles. And since she used murder by sword and the point of a spear she has no doubt perverted the faith into her own man-made religion which does nothing more than deceive people. You should have known that the moment you realized your mother church was in bed fornicating with Roman Emperors who demanded to be worshiped as God-Men. What? You have not realized that yet, gestapo man? :chuckle:
None of that's true.
Idiot.
"The gates of hell prevailed against the Church that the risen Lord built." You
Zeke
Well-known member
Most are blinded by traditions of men that teach carnal idol worship Romans 1:20, when its symbology Galatians 4:24, The carnal Christ debacle that made our Divine parents into carnal misfits that need flesh and blood to satisfy a symbolic law taught as literal, which could only be played by a foreshadow in the flesh version, a antichrist that tradition has secularized/veiled the eternal invisible Christ that lights every man/divne seed coming into this world instead you get taught Romans 1:23, and spend years in need of being weaned from suckingly the canine dogma of idol worship.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Spirit rebirth into the kingdom............
Spirit rebirth into the kingdom............
Indeed, even the Master quoted again Psalm 82 to 'school' the scribes that human rulers/judges/leaders were also called 'elohim' and indeed sons of the Most High Jesus discourse to them in John flipped the tables but some Trinitarians here still 'juxtapose' and 'swashbuckle' the passages, of course to make Jesus 'God Almighty', a clearly UNNECESSARY identification, but hey.....one can believe whatever they like. The Lord Christ is still honored.
I think its more that traditionalists find Jesus being a 'god' a bit unsettling because it upsets monotheism, but in any case,...the logos is of course 'divine' (theos) because of its Father-source, as the creative word, logic, wisdom, reason,....since "in the beginning" of course the Universal One, Pure MIND articulated its designs, plans and programs in Creation expressing its creativity. The logos is the medium thru which YHWH creates, expresses his imagination, in all forms, appearances and images, as Creation itself is a play of light, energy, spirit and form, unfolding in space and time.
The logos is ever at the heart of all, as the communicating dialogue of 'God', his design-signature, his prophetic fiat. The logos was manifesting in the person of Jesus, in as much as Jesus is the REVELATION of YHWH to men in space and time, a temporal image reflected to man's consciousness....of 'God'. - as that logos is birthed in man, it gives rise to his own divine heritage in the christening of 'sonship', as we put on Christ, and become his body, the temple where God and man dwell as one.
Spirit rebirth into the kingdom............
Indeed, even the Master quoted again Psalm 82 to 'school' the scribes that human rulers/judges/leaders were also called 'elohim' and indeed sons of the Most High
Jesus discourse to them in John flipped the tables but some Trinitarians here still 'juxtapose' and 'swashbuckle' the passages, of course to make Jesus 'God Almighty', a clearly UNNECESSARY identification, but hey.....one can believe whatever they like. The Lord Christ is still honored.I think its more that traditionalists find Jesus being a 'god' a bit unsettling because it upsets monotheism, but in any case,...the logos is of course 'divine' (theos) because of its Father-source, as the creative word, logic, wisdom, reason,....since "in the beginning" of course the Universal One, Pure MIND articulated its designs, plans and programs in Creation expressing its creativity. The logos is the medium thru which YHWH creates, expresses his imagination, in all forms, appearances and images, as Creation itself is a play of light, energy, spirit and form, unfolding in space and time.
The logos is ever at the heart of all, as the communicating dialogue of 'God', his design-signature, his prophetic fiat. The logos was manifesting in the person of Jesus, in as much as Jesus is the REVELATION of YHWH to men in space and time, a temporal image reflected to man's consciousness....of 'God'. - as that logos is birthed in man, it gives rise to his own divine heritage in the christening of 'sonship', as we put on Christ, and become his body, the temple where God and man dwell as one.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Logos is first non-personal, but can be personified...............
Logos is first non-personal, but can be personified...............
Some would agree that a 'god' (lower case as to distinguish this from THE 'God') is a possible translation. I find "In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was divine" as being good enough, because I don't think its necessary to make the logos into THE God, since the context shows clear distinction of the logos being a separate entity. What you have the burden to prove is that Jesus is YHWH, if that is your 'assumption', as opposed to some Unitarians finding it quite sufficient to see the revelation of 'God' in Jesus, without having to make into a DEITY he does not have to be. I see the creative wisdom, reason and logic of 'God' thruout creation, and in His Messiah-Son,...I behold God's eternal love, grace and truth in the Lord Jesus, a title and honor the Father bestowed upon the Son, and honor the Universal FATHER of all things and beings, as THE God of and Father of all. The glory of the Son, is ever subordinate to Abba God, nothing supercedes the primacy of The Father, and it is to his Father that the Son delivers the kingdom, ever at his right hand. The 'hand' or 'arm' of the Lord is ever the Servant-Son of YHWH.
Of course there other perspectives, this is just one among many
Again,....the thread here posits that Jesus is not YHWH, in assuming that YHWH is a proper or formal IDentification of The One and Only Deity, the Father,....the Son being the Mesenger-Messiah whom He anointed and appointed. "The Father is greater than I" is still on the lips of the Master, and always will be. As long as their 'relationship' exists as 2 personalities, one being begotten by the other, it will always be so.
Logos is first non-personal, but can be personified...............
Seems pretty clear to me that the Word was God, not "a" god.
Some would agree that a 'god' (lower case as to distinguish this from THE 'God') is a possible translation. I find "In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was divine" as being good enough, because I don't think its necessary to make the logos into THE God, since the context shows clear distinction of the logos being a separate entity. What you have the burden to prove is that Jesus is YHWH, if that is your 'assumption', as opposed to some Unitarians finding it quite sufficient to see the revelation of 'God' in Jesus, without having to make into a DEITY he does not have to be. I see the creative wisdom, reason and logic of 'God' thruout creation, and in His Messiah-Son,...I behold God's eternal love, grace and truth in the Lord Jesus, a title and honor the Father bestowed upon the Son, and honor the Universal FATHER of all things and beings, as THE God of and Father of all. The glory of the Son, is ever subordinate to Abba God, nothing supercedes the primacy of The Father, and it is to his Father that the Son delivers the kingdom, ever at his right hand. The 'hand' or 'arm' of the Lord is ever the Servant-Son of YHWH.
Of course there other perspectives, this is just one among many
Again,....the thread here posits that Jesus is not YHWH, in assuming that YHWH is a proper or formal IDentification of The One and Only Deity, the Father,....the Son being the Mesenger-Messiah whom He anointed and appointed. "The Father is greater than I" is still on the lips of the Master, and always will be. As long as their 'relationship' exists as 2 personalities, one being begotten by the other, it will always be so.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
God ....in person, and beyond personal...................
God ....in person, and beyond personal...................
One passage exists that implies that the Holy Spirit was lied to....just one? - and that suddenly becomes the end all be all "proof" that the HS is a person. I think we'll have to better than that. Admirable however. KR's explanation is reasonable,...lying to God WOULD also be lying to the spirit of God, yes? Is God separate, distinct or different from HIS OWN SPIRIT? - perhaps we would like to reconsider here, without the 'trinitarian' pre-text
There are both non-personal and personal aspects of 'God' that we can assume or relate to, because 'God', the infinite Creator, includes all that exists, and encompasses all qualities and attributes of soul and spirit, energy and matter. The Infinite then has both impersonal and personal aspects. - even 'pre-personal', 'super-personal', 'trans-personal', and that which transcends category or description. Anytime we are relating to God 'personally',...he is personal, a person/personality....and since 'God' is SPIRIT, this incorporeal spirit can also be personalized or referred to as a 'person', but this is stretched to extremes just to fit a Trinitarian formula that 3 PERSONS must exist in a 'godhead', so lets milk this verse for all its worth
Do note, my theology transcends all this in any case, but here we are probing the 'Christology' involved in the assumption that 'Jesus is YHWH', and observations that clearly show he is not, that is, per our identifying names and terms. - and that's just the point,...its how we are identifying/defining our terms. Yet even in orthodox Trinitarianism....efforts are made NOT to confuse the divine persons, while maintaining the same 'essence'. But from a pure monist point of view,....all is made of one essence anyways (all comes from one original substance), so we are all begotten of God's essence, and are but personalities-expressions of the Infinite itself we are all extensions of The ONE. - we could expand much beyond the limited creedal formula of orthodoxy, to heights even more wonderful and noble. We are all God's offspring, and if 'God' can properly be identified as YHWH, that ONE that brings all things into being, the first original cause or generating power at the heart/root of all creation,...then YHWH is the Universal Father.
God ....in person, and beyond personal...................
One passage exists that implies that the Holy Spirit was lied to....just one? - and that suddenly becomes the end all be all "proof" that the HS is a person. I think we'll have to better than that. Admirable however. KR's explanation is reasonable,...lying to God WOULD also be lying to the spirit of God, yes? Is God separate, distinct or different from HIS OWN SPIRIT? - perhaps we would like to reconsider here, without the 'trinitarian' pre-text
There are both non-personal and personal aspects of 'God' that we can assume or relate to, because 'God', the infinite Creator, includes all that exists, and encompasses all qualities and attributes of soul and spirit, energy and matter. The Infinite then has both impersonal and personal aspects. - even 'pre-personal', 'super-personal', 'trans-personal', and that which transcends category or description. Anytime we are relating to God 'personally',...he is personal, a person/personality....and since 'God' is SPIRIT, this incorporeal spirit can also be personalized or referred to as a 'person', but this is stretched to extremes just to fit a Trinitarian formula that 3 PERSONS must exist in a 'godhead', so lets milk this verse for all its worth
Do note, my theology transcends all this in any case, but here we are probing the 'Christology' involved in the assumption that 'Jesus is YHWH', and observations that clearly show he is not, that is, per our identifying names and terms. - and that's just the point,...its how we are identifying/defining our terms. Yet even in orthodox Trinitarianism....efforts are made NOT to confuse the divine persons, while maintaining the same 'essence'. But from a pure monist point of view,....all is made of one essence anyways (all comes from one original substance), so we are all begotten of God's essence, and are but personalities-expressions of the Infinite itself
we are all extensions of The ONE. - we could expand much beyond the limited creedal formula of orthodoxy, to heights even more wonderful and noble. We are all God's offspring, and if 'God' can properly be identified as YHWH, that ONE that brings all things into being, the first original cause or generating power at the heart/root of all creation,...then YHWH is the Universal Father.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The ecclesia is built on what? The rock of revelation..........
The ecclesia is built on what? The rock of revelation..........
I ascertain parts that are - but all things are subject to debate.
Ouch. Lets play nice :angel:
I don't think highlighting this verse as a 'proof-text' that an organized 'church' cannot be corrupted, changed or manipulated in a wrong way holds too much weight, for the verse is only found in Matthew anyways, and seems to be an interpolation by the 'church hierarchy' to credit her and Peter's lineage with papal authority, as least in one sense, although the passage also refers to the universal fact that the keys of the kingdom are available to all God's children, in their power to 'bind' and 'loose', and I believe we do indeed have that power, if we would know how to use such with care and wisdom.
I would also note on Matt. 16, that it was from Peter's confession that Jesus was not 'God', but the Messiah, the SON of the living God that the true ecclesia is built, this comprising those who along with Peter, have received the like revelation of Jesus being the Messiah-Son. In this a true foundational monotheistic Unitarian theology holds
Do you also share Peter's revelation from the Father? ...or have you added more?
The ecclesia is built on what? The rock of revelation..........
I ascertain parts that are
- but all things are subject to debate.Ouch. Lets play nice :angel:
I don't think highlighting this verse as a 'proof-text' that an organized 'church' cannot be corrupted, changed or manipulated in a wrong way holds too much weight, for the verse is only found in Matthew anyways, and seems to be an interpolation by the 'church hierarchy' to credit her and Peter's lineage with papal authority, as least in one sense, although the passage also refers to the universal fact that the keys of the kingdom are available to all God's children, in their power to 'bind' and 'loose', and I believe we do indeed have that power, if we would know how to use such with care and wisdom.
I would also note on Matt. 16, that it was from Peter's confession that Jesus was not 'God', but the Messiah, the SON of the living God that the true ecclesia is built, this comprising those who along with Peter, have received the like revelation of Jesus being the Messiah-Son. In this a true foundational monotheistic Unitarian theology holds
Do you also share Peter's revelation from the Father? ...or have you added more?
So a group of crazed, I don't know, Muslims, surround you and threaten to decapitate you right then and there, unless you deny the Resurrection. What do you do. You won't touch that.Uh-oh, you'll need to be saying more hail Mary's for that one, (again, Mt 5:22).
Hey Freelight, you don't believe the Resurrection is nonfiction, so we as far as spirituality goes, we have NOTHING in common, and I've no respect for your spiritual thoughts. I don't care. You're not a Christian, and that's fine, I do believe firmly in the right to practice religion freely, and I would fight for your right to believe as you do, but we are not spiritual siblings, not like I am with Daqq, if Daqq in fact does believe in the Resurrection as nonfiction, which I believe that they do.I ascertain parts that are
Ouch. Lets play nice :angel:
I don't think highlighting this verse as a 'proof-text' that an organized 'church' cannot be corrupted, changed or manipulated in a wrong way holds too much weight, for the verse is only found in Matthew anyways, and seems to be an interpolation by the 'church hierarchy' to credit her and Peter's lineage with papal authority, as least in one sense, although the passage also refers to the universal fact that the keys of the kingdom are available to all God's children, in their power to 'bind' and 'loose', and I believe we do indeed have that power, if we would know how to use such with care and wisdom.
I would also note on Matt. 16, that it was from Peter's confession that Jesus was not 'God', but the Messiah, the SON of the living God that the true ecclesia is built, this comprising those who along with Peter, have received the like revelation of Jesus being the Messiah-Son. In this a true foundational monotheistic Unitarian theology holds
Do you also share Peter's revelation from the Father? ...or have you added more?
The Resurrection is called "the crowning truth" of the one Christian faith (Eph4:5KJV). It is the exclusive tenet that must be believed for salvation (Ro10:9KJV). I know you question Paul as if he was just another man like yourself, but Paul was an Apostle of the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and that means no matter what you think of him, seeing as how you don't even believe in the Resurrection, he is higher than you on the totem pole here. Nobody who believes in the Resurrection should see you, when you dare to speak about such things, which I recommend against, as anything other than a grave trespasser, taking the Lord's name in vain. When you mention Him, you are not talking about Him, you are talking about some apparition that you've invented in your own mind, or that you read about somewhere in some yogi's memoirs---that is not the Lord Jesus Christ. When you talk about Him, you're talking about Him as if He is but a mere man, such as yourself, and you have every right to do so, that falling under your right to religious liberty, which I would fight to protect, and which I respect.
But you put yourself forth as some sort of Christian and you are NO sort of Christian, and that's why I accuse you of taking the Lord's name in vain, when you invoke Him.
And that is why I recommend you not do that.
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