genuineoriginal
New member
That is not the problem.
Everyone that believes Jesus came in the flesh can state that Jesus is human and that Jesus is divine, even if they answer "no" to your poll.
So, what is the assumption that causes the problem?
Jesus is God
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
That is not the problem.
Everyone that believes Jesus came in the flesh can state that Jesus is human and that Jesus is divine, even if they answer "no" to your poll.
So, what is the assumption that causes the problem?
6days
New member
We do. ... There is One God...period.
Interesting to note that God's Word describes Jesus with the same attributes that only the one true God has.
Jesus is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is the Truth...He is the Life.
Jesus is called God...He is called Lord..He is the King of Kings.
We know who Jesus is by His work and His actions....things only God can do. Jesus can forgive sin. He is the judge. Jesus is the Creator, and He maintains it. Jesus raises the dead.
Only God can be worshipped and we see that angels worship Jesus...people worshipped Him. And...Jesus claims equality with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
Yes as you stated...as God's Word states...there is One true God.
How could you conclude that? Yes he is the Son, and our Lord and God who is an existential personification of the Father-I AM. In spirit they are indistinguishable to us.
Things only God can do and did do.
Ye men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you as ye yourselves also know. (Acts 2:22)
Yes, God did the works through a man approved of God, the man Jesus Christ.
Give credit to whom credit is due. God works through men his wonders to perform.
Jesus chose as his title "Son of Man" from the Book of Enoch.
The Son of Man
Fragment of 1 Enoch (Scrolls of the Dead Sea).
Fragment of 1 Enoch (Scrolls of the Dead Sea) (©!!!)
And there I saw the One to Whom belongs the time before time, and His head was white like wool. With Him was another being, whose countenance had the appearance of a man, and his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. I asked the angel who went with me [...] concerning that son of and who he was, and whence he was, and why he went with the One to Whom belongs the time before time.
He answered and said to me: 'This is the son of man who has righteousness, with whom dwells righteousness, and who reveals all the treasures of that which is hidden, because the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and whose lot has the pre-eminence before the Lord of the spirits in uprightness for ever. This son of man whom you have seen shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats and the strong from their thrones, and shall loosen the reins of the strong and break the teeth of the sinners.'
And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, and his name before the the One to Whom belongs the time before time. Yes, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of the spirits. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the light of the gentiles and the hope of those who are troubled of heart. All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, and will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of the spirits. For this reason has he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for ever more. The wisdom of the Lord of the spirits has revealed him to the holy and righteous; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, and have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of the spirits: for in his name they are saved, and according to his good pleasure has it been in regard to their life.
In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become, and the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands, for on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not be able to save themselves. And I will give them over into the hands of My elect: as straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy, as lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous, and no trace of them shall any more be found.
And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth, and before them they shall fall and not rise again. There shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them, for they have denied the Lord of the spirits and His Messiah. The name of the Lord of the spirits be blessed."
[1 Enoch 46.1-4;
1 Enoch 48.2-10]
The Son of Man
Fragment of 1 Enoch (Scrolls of the Dead Sea).
Fragment of 1 Enoch (Scrolls of the Dead Sea) (©!!!)
And there I saw the One to Whom belongs the time before time, and His head was white like wool. With Him was another being, whose countenance had the appearance of a man, and his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. I asked the angel who went with me [...] concerning that son of and who he was, and whence he was, and why he went with the One to Whom belongs the time before time.
He answered and said to me: 'This is the son of man who has righteousness, with whom dwells righteousness, and who reveals all the treasures of that which is hidden, because the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and whose lot has the pre-eminence before the Lord of the spirits in uprightness for ever. This son of man whom you have seen shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats and the strong from their thrones, and shall loosen the reins of the strong and break the teeth of the sinners.'
And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, and his name before the the One to Whom belongs the time before time. Yes, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of the spirits. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the light of the gentiles and the hope of those who are troubled of heart. All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, and will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of the spirits. For this reason has he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for ever more. The wisdom of the Lord of the spirits has revealed him to the holy and righteous; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, and have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of the spirits: for in his name they are saved, and according to his good pleasure has it been in regard to their life.
In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become, and the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands, for on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not be able to save themselves. And I will give them over into the hands of My elect: as straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy, as lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous, and no trace of them shall any more be found.
And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth, and before them they shall fall and not rise again. There shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them, for they have denied the Lord of the spirits and His Messiah. The name of the Lord of the spirits be blessed."
[1 Enoch 46.1-4;
1 Enoch 48.2-10]
keypurr
Well-known member
We all cherry pick, but that does not change the words.
Christ was, Jesus was not at the creation.
Are you now saying that Christ was not divine as a human? I question that.
I also question that the spirit did not die. I am speaking of the Christ spirit. He came to die as a human.
Are you saying your God has limits? Mine does not. He created his exact image to do the work of creation. Christ is a created form of God, Phil 2.
None of us know it all yet Caino, learn new ideas that just might bring you some light.
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keypurr
Well-known member
Nope, Jesus did not come down from heaven, the Christ in him did.
Who made him Lord? Hint, his God did.
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keypurr
Well-known member
He is the SON OF GOD, not God. Why do you question HIS WORDS.
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A duel nature being, he was not a human that at some point became divine, he was not a divine that became entirely human, he was both human and divine. He had already pleased God by the time of his voluntary, ceremonial baptism.
God was already forgiving, salvation was by faith as taught by Jesus long before the cross. Death is mans natural fate, It was the Fathers will for the Son to pass through all that man is called to do. "lay down his life for his sheep", not as a Pagan human sacrifice, an idea that was prevalent outside of Judaism and predates Jesus.
Why do you question who he is when you know. Does He as the Son have the attributes and characteristics of His Father?
keypurr
Well-known member
Jesus is not omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient. He does not know when he will return, but his God knows.
Jesus is not called God. Now Jesus Christ is Lord made so by his God. Who? His God.
Kings in the OT were worshipped also.
Jesus NEVER claimed to be equal to his father. He said his Father is greater THAN ALL.
You listen to the wrong people friend.
Jesus Christ tells that his FATHER is the ONLY true God. Listen to your Lord, not your socila club.
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genuineoriginal
New member
Let me get this straight. (I hope)
You believe Jesus is the Son of God, but you don't know the difference between the Son of God and the Father?
genuineoriginal
New member
Not all of us have the Book of Enoch in our Bible.
We do have the Book of Daniel.
Daniel 7:13 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. |
It appears Daniel saw the Son of man brought before the Ancient of days by the clouds of heaven.
keypurr
Well-known member
Thank you, it kind of supports my thoughts.
Our God is the Lord of the spirits and his Messiah was spirit driven by the spiritual son of God, Christ.
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keypurr
Well-known member
6days
New member
Jamie said:
Yes, of course we need give credit to God for everything. And the man Jesus, did give credit to "our Father". *But we also need consider the whole of scripture realizing the Jesus is our Creator. ..and will be our judge. Both OT & NT are consistent in letting us know who Jesus is.
"For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 9:6
The Hebrew el is a generic term which in this case obviously does not refer to the Most High. The term actually refers to a mighty one, any mighty one. Even angels are referred to as el (Psalm 29:1)
6days
New member
keypurr said:
He has "all authority"...Matthew 28:18
"Where 2 or 3...I am there" Matt. 18:20keypurr said:
John 1:48-50 Jesus knew where Nathaniel was.keypurr said:
Quite correct...the son of man ...the human Jesus did not know. MATT 24:36keypurr said:
"Of the Son he says, "Thy throne oh God..."" Heb. 1:8keypurr said:
Or
" and the Word was God"
Jesus is also called 'Lord'. Matt. 22:43-45
Jesus is also called 'King of kings and Lord of lords'. Rev. 19:16
What verse says Jesus was made? Or that God appointed anyone other than the one true God as Lord?keypurr said:
Some people today worship Buddah... or their car. But who alone is worthy to be worshipped.keypurr said:
Angels worship Jesus .."Let all the angels of God worship Him" Heb. 1:6
And...
"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, of those who are in Heaven, and those on earth, and under the earth."
Phil. 2:10
John 14:23keypurr said:
John 10:30
Yes...as the Son of man, that makes perfect sense.keypurr said:
Yes...as the Son of man, that makes perfect sense. But also we need to see what Jesus says about who the Son of God is. We need look at the full context of all scripture including prophecy.keypurr said:
Ex. "A child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." ISAIAH 9:6
Krsto
Well-known member
No, the problem is the assumption that deity implies a separate person of God as opposed to a separate human person having divine attributes given to him by God the Father.
Many of the non-trins on this board are not very good communicators. They will say they don't believe in the deity of Christ when in fact they do or they will say they don't believe "Jesus is God" when in fact they agree with the biblical definition of the Greek word used for God (theos) and the Hebrew word used for God (el) that happens to be translated as "God" with a capital G in any place it refers to Christ.
What non-trins do not agree with is how "Jesus is God" reads in English since the English word "God" does not allow for the biblical use of a human representative of God. That's why people on both sides of the debate read Jesus' statement saying "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" and don't know what to do with it. Trinitarians ignore that the word used there is the same theos used elsewhere and translated as "God" with a capital G. They bring up that that's a JW argument and if it's a JW argument it can't have any validity. They never look at the argument on its own merit and realize that theos can and is used for human representatives of God and so any verse that says Jesus is theos doesn't prove he is God in the English sense of the word. Non-trins on the other hand don't know how to set up the argument so it makes any sense and only time will tell if I'm guilty of the same
:think:
Krsto
Well-known member
And here's Exhibit A for someone with poor communication skills.
What's a trinitarian going to do every time he sees this? He's going to think of the 2 or 3 scriptures that say, "Jesus is God."
No explanation is ever given by so many on this board what is meant by the statement, "Jesus is not God."
We are all like ships passing in the night.