Jesus is God

[Bright Raven]

Totally circular, since its been clearly articulated how the BELIEF was 'doctrinally developed', and conceptually accepted thru a process of logics and rationale within certain theological or more pointedly 'Christological' contexts. - My former post and most others on this particular still HOLDS, as well as Bart Ehrmans presentation in his scholarly work on the matter.

Now as to whether one BELIEVES Jesus is God or not (in reality, as it that could really be verified or proven by any certain criteria) is another matter, or more specifically a matter of personal 'belief' and one's chosen 'preference' of Christology. - and that my dear is the truth of this relative matter.

Absolute REALITY if we would consider it, is that ALONE which is ABSOLUTE, and by classical or traditional theist theology and even in universal metaphysical definitions, can only be 'God' or 'Deity' itself (pure Spirit-Energy-Consciousness), if we are to consider the pure essence and IDentity of 'God' himself (in its essential formless incorporeal being) - This 'Deity' is the one and only absolute divine, indivisible, universal, eternal, infinite, timeless, spaceless reality. - all else (creation in space-time) is but a form, expression, manifestation, extension or emenation of 'God' ....so in that case Jesus would naturally be a 'Son' of said 'God', in a similar but nuanced way that all souls, to one degree or another, in one form or fashion...are the 'offspring' of 'God'.

Give Jesus all the Godhood you wish, but the relational differences and distinctions STILL EXIST in the realm of personality-relationships, as these are still 2 personalities RELATING to each other, per the creed's definition. Again, DEEM these 2 or 3 personalities within a 'Trinity' as being of 'one same essence' then its just the same truth of 'monotheism' and even 'monism' but with a little added 'metaphysical gymnastics' thrown in....JUST to make 'Jesus' into 'Almighty God', which in the greater cosmic context of understanding reality in all its dimensions is really NOT necessary to believe as a 'dogma' or a 'truth', but just one way of looking at and relating to 'God' and his Creative Agency, whether these 'sons' be more or less divine or human (assuming they incarnate on various worlds from time to time on 'bestowal missions' to reveal 'God' to the inhabitants of those worlds). - Then add the good ole Holy Spirit into the equation, as if to 'personify' the Spirit of God, when this is again unnecessary, since we relate to the One Spirit of 'God' just the same, whether 'personally' or 'otherwise'.

Add onto to this that 'God' is naturally the Father of spirits,...there are many spirit-offsprings of 'God'.

We could go on........

Let's not go on. I believe that Jesus is God, you don't. Let's leave it at that.

 

[freelight]

Moving along...............

Moving along...............

Let's not go on. I believe that Jesus is God, you don't. Let's leave it at that.

One can leave it at 'anything',...but there's more than one perspective, different points of view and all that FUN stuff. The fact that 'doctrines' and 'Christology' of various kinds evolved cannot be overlooked, and intellectual honesty at the end of the day accepts that your 'viewpoint' is a matter of 'personal' belief/faith...and/or that which you feel best fits your own theological understanding, interpretation of scripture, philosophical proclivities, and other preferred conclusions. I grant your simplistic approach here, but this issue involves many dimensions. Its far from being a 'one layered cake'.

One can take this way out of the league of a merely 'Christian' cult-ural context, and from a monist world view see that any position can be taken, from the greater omni-view of God being OMNIPRESENT anyways. There is only One Absolute Reality, which is both infinite and universal,...and out of this reality, this base-essence, the origin of all energy and consciousness, comes every form or personality, which if having consciousness...is experiencing reality from its own limited space-time encapsulated existence, as one point of view among an infinitude.

If the concept of Jesus being 'God' has any value, it will be to that effect that such an understanding has some kind of positive effect in the religious experience and actual life of that individual, if Jesus can be USED in any way as a subject revealing 'God' to the individual, and in that way affect his life for the better, by that person being a 'help', 'blessing' or of some kind of real 'service' to others, becoming a vessel for 'God' to use. I have no problems with a conceptual frame of Jesus being 'God' or 'divine', but this in and of itself as some doctrinal statement or tenet of faith, does not necessarily have any meaning or value, unless we consider such in a context where such does in fact have such. It would be perhaps a more constructive approach to engage the discussion in that direction, of what import such an conceptual frame has for us as religionists of any sort, if we include Jesus in our religious studies, let alone claim to be his disciples. If Jesus is for the whole world,...we need to consider its global import, as far as that affects the world.

So you believe 'Jesus is God'. Bravo. What does that do for you in reality, or how does that affect the world, or those who never heard of Jesus or do NOT believe Jesus is 'God' per orthodox Christian definitions? If it helps YOU in your approach, communion and experience of 'God', thats super. There are however other ways to understand Jesus role as a 'revealer' of 'God' or teacher of truth, since he assumes different roles and archetypes among the religious psyche.

 

[Nihilo]

[jesus] assumes different roles and archetypes among the religious psyche.

There's only One archetype for Him, He's it! He's the One.

 

[freelight]

There's only One archetype for Him, He's it! He's the One.

I agree with One divine Reality-source, one 'Deity', but this Deity has many different forms, names, manifestations, sons, offsprings, etc....there is One Original Monad. The 'creative word' (logos) of this Being is of 'God' of course, being the vehicle/agency THRU which he creates worlds. The Word-Son is also an 'arche' of God, so is the basis of an archetypal pattern, of that sacred sound stream, recognized as well in other traditions as the 'om', 'naam' or 'tao', but these carry different but similar nuances

You can go to early greek philosophers and Philo for building on the 'logos' concept, before the writer of John ADOPTED these terms applying them to Jesus

 

[Zeke]

Ephesians 5:14.

 

[Jacob]

Do you believe it?

Shalom.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[glorydaz]

Ephesians 5:14.

If it's such nonsense, why are you posting in this forum at all?

Go back to where you belong.

 

[freelight]

Freedom to believe as you CHOOSE........

Freedom to believe as you CHOOSE........

If it's such nonsense, why are you posting in this forum at all?

Go back to where you belong.

Be nice, Mooji has such great wisdom

Of course the video could be seen as 'off topic' and just zeke making a point, basically that all this theolgical banter and doctrinal debates over whether Jesus is 'God' or something 'else' (a combo-pack of 'humanity' & 'divinity', mixt it up and shake and bake it as you wish)...is a waste of time and nonsensical

It could be - in any case, my informed opinions and commentary still hold, but most of it as you know is merely circular, since I stand with Bart Erhman's analysis that Jesus DOCTRINALLY was made 'God' more formally in the 3rd - 4th century when the creeds were being 'codified' as dogmatic statements, so whether you choose to believe 'majority concensus'(as if that gives veracity to anything) with the RCC and her various protestant daughters, a modalist view or Unitarian one, thats your personal preference. I kinda find the Gnostic or Essene Jesus much more cool and then there are other versions of Jesus that could be 'tenable' as well.

Welcome to the smorgusboard.

 

[glorydaz]

Be nice, Mooji has such great wisdom

Of course the video could be seen as 'off topic' and just zeke making a point, basically that all this theolgical banter and doctrinal debates over whether Jesus is 'God' or something 'else' (a combo-pack of 'humanity' & 'divinity', mixt it up and shake and bake it as you wish)...is a waste of time and nonsensical

It could be - in any case, my informed opinions and commentary still hold, but most of it as you know is merely circular, since I stand with Bart Erhman's analysis that Jesus DOCTRINALLY was made 'God' more formally in the 3rd - 4th century when the creeds were being 'codified' as dogmatic statements, so whether you choose to believe 'majority concensus'(as if that gives veracity to anything) with the RCC and her various protestant daughters, a modalist view or Unitarian one, thats your personal preference. I kinda find the Gnostic or Essene Jesus much more cool and then there are other versions of Jesus that could be 'tenable' as well.

Welcome to the smorgusboard.

"Smorgusboard" in a religion forum is just plain stinky cow dung.

Fancy names won't help it none.

 

[freelight]

"Smorgusboard" in a religion forum is just plain stinky cow dung.

Fancy names won't help it none.

If Christianity or any other religious tradition has within it many different schools of thought, perspective, interpretations and translations of its various texts,...it could be termed a 'smorgusboard'. The humor was intended, as there is no need to be 'dogmatic' over anything, as I've already shared here, one can believe Jesus is God, OR they can choose NOT to believe such, as 'defined' by various persons or creeds that make that 'assumption'. The Bible can be USED to support different Christological viewpoints, doctrinal concepts, and eschatological conclusions.

 

[Nihilo]

I agree with One divine Reality-source, one 'Deity', but this Deity has many different forms, names, manifestations, sons, offsprings, etc....there is One Original Monad. The 'creative word' (logos) of this Being is of 'God' of course, being the vehicle/agency THRU which he creates worlds. The Word-Son is also an 'arche' of God, so is the basis of an archetypal pattern, of that sacred sound stream, recognized as well in other traditions as the 'om', 'naam' or 'tao', but these carry different but similar nuances

You can go to early greek philosophers and Philo for building on the 'logos' concept, before the writer of John ADOPTED these terms applying them to Jesus

Jesus Christ IS the archetype of God, and Resurrection. THE archetype, it's HIM.

 

[freelight]

Jesus Christ IS the archetype of God, and Resurrection. THE archetype, it's HIM.

And in our merging in him, and he in us, we become the Christ, his very body. The whole process of theosis is centered in and archetyped in Christ as the last or second Adam, and we being perfected, purified and resurrected in the Spirit, are that new humanity. This is the seminal core of Paul's mystery teaching.

 

[Nihilo]

And in our merging in him, and he in us, we become the Christ, his very body. The whole process of theosis is centered in and archetyped in Christ as the last or second Adam, and we being perfected, purified and resurrected in the Spirit, are that new humanity. This is the seminal core of Paul's mystery teaching.

We are the Body of Christ, because we are His Bride. Paul's mystery teaching. Ephesians 5:25-32 (KJV)

 

[freelight]

We are the Body of Christ, because we are His Bride. Paul's mystery teaching. Ephesians 5:25-32 (KJV)

Allegorical, symbolic, figurative...of course

Hence, because we are Christ's body we are Christ, here in the earth. We are God's TEMPLE. - his living stones, his very tabernacles.

Any concept or belief that Jesus is God, only serves to open our own mind to the spiritual realization that our relationship with God is deeply intimate, subjective and spiritual....since we are merged in Christ, and his Spirit is merged into us, in the unity of Spirit. Only in this context does some notion of 'Jesus being God' have any value, meaning or significance, beyond it being a mere dogma assumed by some believers. To an outsider of the faith,...it is mere assertion.

 

[Zeke]

If it's such nonsense, why are you posting in this forum at all?

Go back to where you belong.

why do you come to the "religious section and complain about other religious ideas"? you have a christian section you can post you're dogma/fear traditional voidance concerning spiritual liberty.

 

[Zeke]

Allegorical, symbolic, figurative...of course

Hence, because we are Christ's body we are Christ, here in the earth. We are God's TEMPLE. - his living stones, his very tabernacles.

Any concept or belief that Jesus is God, only serves to open our own mind to the spiritual realization that our relationship with God is deeply intimate, subjective and spiritual....since we are merged in Christ, and his Spirit is merged into us, in the unity of Spirit. Only in this context does some notion of 'Jesus being God' have any value, meaning or significance, beyond it being a mere dogma assumed by some believers. To an outsider of the faith,...it is mere assertion.

Jesus like Paul said he could do nothing except the Father did it through them, these prototypes have becomes traditions IDOLS that prevent progression of the Soul from a child Galatians 4:1 who mixes flesh with spirit Galatians 4:24, 1Kings 19:12, 2Cor 5:16, 2Cor 3:6 and can't except what the Spirit said about the location of the Divine Kingdom Luke 17:20-21, Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, they think their awake but the attitude based on fear and exclusion shows the palate is still based on a milk diet looking into times observational vanity Matt 11:3, that was plagiarized from past motifs telling the same adventure of the Soul/Seed that falls into death Luke 15:23-24. Most here are is still dazzed and asleep in the christian cradle, but, the real good news is that the spell of fear and exclusive dogma will be dealt with by the One when the Soul is ready to reconcile the world not holding their sins against them, then the chains and prison doors will open, until then the Spirit says let the dead bury the dead Matt 11:11.

 

[Zeke]

The Judah syndrome playing with harlots that turn out to be more righteous than them, tricky judging by appearances while under the religious trance/bondage of this worlds playground where you can hate and judge without impunity until it turns on you Genesis 38:24.

 

[Nihilo]

Allegorical, symbolic, figurative...of course

The word is "mystical."

Hence, because we are Christ's body we are Christ, here in the earth. We are God's TEMPLE. - his living stones, his very tabernacles.

Any concept or belief that Jesus is God, only serves to open our own mind to the spiritual realization that our relationship with God is deeply intimate, subjective and spiritual....since we are merged in Christ, and his Spirit is merged into us, in the unity of Spirit. Only in this context does some notion of 'Jesus being God' have any value, meaning or significance, beyond it being a mere dogma assumed by some believers. To an outsider of the faith,...it is mere assertion.

Only those who believe that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead are members of His Body the Church; His resurrection is historical, and nonfiction.

 

[freelight]

Spirit is LIFE........

Spirit is LIFE........

Jesus like Paul said he could do nothing except the Father did it through them, these prototypes have becomes traditions IDOLS that prevent progression of the Soul from a child Galatians 4:1 who mixes flesh with spirit Galatians 4:24, 1Kings 19:12, 2Cor 5:16, 2Cor 3:6 and can't except what the Spirit said about the location of the Divine Kingdom Luke 17:20-21, Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, they think their awake but the attitude based on fear and exclusion shows the palate is still based on a milk diet looking into times observational vanity Matt 11:3, that was plagiarized from past motifs telling the same adventure of the Soul/Seed that falls into death Luke 15:23-24. Most here are is still dazzed and asleep in the christian cradle, but, the real good news is that the spell of fear and exclusive dogma will be dealt with by the One when the Soul is ready to reconcile the world not holding their sins against them, then the chains and prison doors will open, until then the Spirit says let the dead bury the dead Matt 11:11.

Indeed,...all objective teaching tools, archetypes, symbols, analogies mirror or represent the inward workings of the soul and its transformation in the Spirit. The letter kills, the Spirit gives life, and Love is the law of the kingdom. All else is commentary, or conceptual indulgence, some more profitable than others in how such intellection serves the Spirit.

Profession that Jesus is God may not serve the Spirit in any individual case, unless that same recognition fosters the knowledge of God and spiritual communion in the recipient, otherwise its just a sterile doctrinal statement or assumption, having no real meaning or value outside of some relational context.

 

[freelight]

More to discover about Jesus...about reality......

More to discover about Jesus...about reality......

The word is "mystical."

Well,...I see that word referring more to the inward subjective experiential realm of communion with Spirit, as a 'mystic' is one who engages 'God' whole heartedly in the inner soul, the deepest heart region, and then of course translates his experience as it relates to all meanings and values in life.

Most all the pomp and ceremony of the mass, eucharist, vespers and other religious rituals and symbols are all objective tools pointing to an inward subjectivity of God-communion, the soul's engagement in service to The ONE. I love the mystic's path of love and wisdom, but also enjoy the gnostic's journey of divine knowledge which is the quest for light.

Only those who believe that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead are members of His Body the Church; His resurrection is historical, and nonfiction.

I dont knot if I subscribe to the RCC's stritct dogmatism, rituals or creeds, except they teach and illustrate universal truths and principles that are real to the soul, and the 'resurrection of Jesus' is something that CANNOT be proven histporically unless you provide a satisfied criteria beyond all doubt. That that resurrection points to the reality of a soul/spirit rising from the dead, that is the spirit rising from the death of the physical body, a resurrection all souls will experience...then that is well. The resurrection and ascension of Jesus forecasts our own soul's transformation in grace, so all this can be translated esoterically, since the spirit gives life. A dogmatic assumption of a physical fleshly resurrection of Jesus is unnecessary, since the laws of nature and the Spirit already exist to inspire and guide the soul onwards. Jesus resurrection awaked this to the consciousness of man, but his gospel is still centered in the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man,...that souls can continue to eternally progress in the kingdom and continue to ascend Godward thru love and service. This fixation of souls being resurrected BACK INTO flesh bodies is wholly unnecessary, if the souls path is to continue on in the spirit worlds after its onetime physical death on earth or any material world for that matter. So, there is more possibilities and probabilities than what orthodox Christianity has assumed, claimed or proposed about Jesus that are worth exploring, and discovering.