Jesus is God !
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
the truth......
the truth......
Hi Jamie,
My former post and explanations stands. AFT's question is an 'assumption' since Lev. 17:11 does NOT refer to Jesus blood at all, neither does this passage prove that blood sacrifice is the only method of atoning for sins, since that's not the point or context of the passage which is about forbidding anyone to eat blood, because it is used for special sacrifices on the altar, and not for any other purpose.
Outreach Judaism answers this adequately here in their response to Jews for Jesus. Research for yourself.
The fact that traditional Orthodox Jewish teaching does NOT include any belief in a divine god-man-messiah, or human blood-sacrifice for sin, still remains. God's LAW does not include such, neither requires a belief in such, since the law of responsibility for one's own sins, and the universal law of karma holds sway. Orthodox Judaism is consonant with their own scriptures, which is very 'lawful'. There is no 'law' requiring a 'god-man', much less a 'man' to die or suffer for another mans sins.
I've never said anywhere that all a sinner has to do is say they are sorry (this is a misrepresentation of 'repentance'). 'Repentance' is an actual changing one's mind, attitude, way of life, a re-turning to 'God' and his law of harmony. Repentance is essential, which is why the prophets, John and Jesus all proclaimed it, as a preparation towards embracing the kingdom. How can there be a transformation, change or renewal apart from a soul repenting (returning to 'God')?
As far as a belief that Jesus died in vain goes.....this is presumed upon various preconceptions. Jesus death may mean nothing at all to one person, and be invested with much 'meaning' by another. The value of his life and giving it freely as an act of love speaks for itself, as a servant of God. Anything further invested into the person or mission of Jesus is 'assumed'.
pj
the truth......
Hi Jamie,
My former post and explanations stands. AFT's question is an 'assumption' since Lev. 17:11 does NOT refer to Jesus blood at all, neither does this passage prove that blood sacrifice is the only method of atoning for sins, since that's not the point or context of the passage which is about forbidding anyone to eat blood, because it is used for special sacrifices on the altar, and not for any other purpose.
Outreach Judaism answers this adequately here in their response to Jews for Jesus. Research for yourself.
The fact that traditional Orthodox Jewish teaching does NOT include any belief in a divine god-man-messiah, or human blood-sacrifice for sin, still remains. God's LAW does not include such, neither requires a belief in such, since the law of responsibility for one's own sins, and the universal law of karma holds sway. Orthodox Judaism is consonant with their own scriptures, which is very 'lawful'. There is no 'law' requiring a 'god-man', much less a 'man' to die or suffer for another mans sins.
I've never said anywhere that all a sinner has to do is say they are sorry (this is a misrepresentation of 'repentance'). 'Repentance' is an actual changing one's mind, attitude, way of life, a re-turning to 'God' and his law of harmony. Repentance is essential, which is why the prophets, John and Jesus all proclaimed it, as a preparation towards embracing the kingdom. How can there be a transformation, change or renewal apart from a soul repenting (returning to 'God')?
As far as a belief that Jesus died in vain goes.....this is presumed upon various preconceptions. Jesus death may mean nothing at all to one person, and be invested with much 'meaning' by another. The value of his life and giving it freely as an act of love speaks for itself, as a servant of God. Anything further invested into the person or mission of Jesus is 'assumed'.
pj
I have never heard anyone claim that Jesus died on the altar as a sacrifice for sin. The NT says that he died outside of the city. He was accused by Jewish law of being a blasphemer.
As for repentance, anyone can repent, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, whomever. But without reconciliation with God there is no forgiveness for sin.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
clearing the dust......
clearing the dust......
The point was Christians using Lev. 17:11 to somehow prove that atonement can only come by a blood-sacrifice, referencing such to Jesus from the passage in Hebrews. Atonement doesn't always require blood. The cliché that "Jesus died for my sins" is still touted among most evangelicals, giving some vague notion of 'reconcilation' (however distorted). Inside or outside the gate, the 'sacrifice' of Jesus still plays a vital role within traditional Christian theology.
Another point addressing AFT's statement is that asking an orthodox Jew 'what blood covering do you claim?' is pointless, since currently there is no blood-covering of any kind extant or in force since there is no 'official' temple in operation, and Jews today have adequate 'atonement' thru 'repentance' (teshuvah) , good deeds, reformation, prayer, charity....doing righteousness. When one is doing right, there is no need for 'atonement', - one returns to righteousness via repentance. The inclusion of animal sacrifices for unintentional sins and all the other meticulous ritual offerings may play their part in the 'relgion', but that will vary according to the import of the tradition and individual experience. - ritual itself does not transform unless accompanied by the personal faith and 'repentance' of the religionist who incorporates it all as a true religious experience.
It depends on how you define 'reconciliation', and how 'repentance' factors into that. A Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or Jew can do some kind of 'repentance' (changing of mind, psychological work) but that will correspond with the mandates and rules within their own tradition. In any case some kind of 'mental' work or approach is being used within the context of any particular religious practice. Since in these traditions Jesus is NOT 'God' per se, but may be an 'avatar' or 'prophet' of 'God'...we again come back to a Christian providing proof that Jesus is 'God' outside of belief. Back to square 1
pj
clearing the dust......
The point was Christians using Lev. 17:11 to somehow prove that atonement can only come by a blood-sacrifice, referencing such to Jesus from the passage in Hebrews. Atonement doesn't always require blood. The cliché that "Jesus died for my sins" is still touted among most evangelicals, giving some vague notion of 'reconcilation' (however distorted). Inside or outside the gate, the 'sacrifice' of Jesus still plays a vital role within traditional Christian theology.
Another point addressing AFT's statement is that asking an orthodox Jew 'what blood covering do you claim?' is pointless, since currently there is no blood-covering of any kind extant or in force since there is no 'official' temple in operation, and Jews today have adequate 'atonement' thru 'repentance' (teshuvah) , good deeds, reformation, prayer, charity....doing righteousness. When one is doing right, there is no need for 'atonement', - one returns to righteousness via repentance. The inclusion of animal sacrifices for unintentional sins and all the other meticulous ritual offerings may play their part in the 'relgion', but that will vary according to the import of the tradition and individual experience. - ritual itself does not transform unless accompanied by the personal faith and 'repentance' of the religionist who incorporates it all as a true religious experience.
It depends on how you define 'reconciliation', and how 'repentance' factors into that. A Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or Jew can do some kind of 'repentance' (changing of mind, psychological work) but that will correspond with the mandates and rules within their own tradition. In any case some kind of 'mental' work or approach is being used within the context of any particular religious practice. Since in these traditions Jesus is NOT 'God' per se, but may be an 'avatar' or 'prophet' of 'God'...we again come back to a Christian providing proof that Jesus is 'God' outside of belief. Back to square 1
pj
So are you saying one religion is as good as another?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Perennial Wisdom
Perennial Wisdom
Please review. The explanation stands. Of course we are referring to the judeo-christain context here of 'blood-atonement', with my emphasis on the Orthodox Jewish position. Each religious tradition has their own world-view, concept of 'God', terms, nomenclature, meanings, concepts of 'salvation/enlightenment/liberation', etc.
In the Perennial Tradition we recognize an ultimate Truth at the heart of all authentic religious traditions where 'God' has impressed some aspect of his being and nature to the souls of men.
Definition of Perennial Wisdom here.
A 'religion' is only as good as its values and power to facilitate the appreciation and practice of such. A 'good' religion is any that brings you closer to 'God'.
pj
Perennial Wisdom
Please review. The explanation stands. Of course we are referring to the judeo-christain context here of 'blood-atonement', with my emphasis on the Orthodox Jewish position. Each religious tradition has their own world-view, concept of 'God', terms, nomenclature, meanings, concepts of 'salvation/enlightenment/liberation', etc.
In the Perennial Tradition we recognize an ultimate Truth at the heart of all authentic religious traditions where 'God' has impressed some aspect of his being and nature to the souls of men.
Definition of Perennial Wisdom here.
A 'religion' is only as good as its values and power to facilitate the appreciation and practice of such. A 'good' religion is any that brings you closer to 'God'.
pj
Yes, it says in Daniel 9:24 that we must repent and make reconciliation for our sins, even though Jesus died for our sins. Except for Jesus dying for our sins, we would have no chance of eternal life and being with God forever. But we still have to reconcile our sins with God.
God is very forgiving. He just needs you to ask, regret our actions, and change whatever is necessary for that forgiveness. And reconciliation comes with a cost, like a refining of silver.
MichaelCadry
God is very forgiving. He just needs you to ask, regret our actions, and change whatever is necessary for that forgiveness. And reconciliation comes with a cost, like a refining of silver.
MichaelCadry
Dear freelight,
You are right on. A good religion is any which brings you Closer to GOD!! Oh, that they ALL would. But we are judged not just by our beliefs but by our works also. So be kind to the homeless and needy, if you can spare something to help them, do so. I just gave someone $15 to wash my car because they were trying to get enough money together for a cremation for a relative. We are much richer than some that are even more poor.
God Bless The Meek!
Michael
You are right on. A good religion is any which brings you Closer to GOD!! Oh, that they ALL would. But we are judged not just by our beliefs but by our works also. So be kind to the homeless and needy, if you can spare something to help them, do so. I just gave someone $15 to wash my car because they were trying to get enough money together for a cremation for a relative. We are much richer than some that are even more poor.
God Bless The Meek!
Michael
beloved57
Well-known member
He is the King of Glory !
Ps 24:7-10
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8 Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Jesus is God because He is the King of Glory, Notice here Vs 10
10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
The Lord of Hosts ! We know there is only One Lord of Hosts and lets read Isa 6:1-3
1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Now its interesting in this blessed vision Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on a Throne, which denotes a King, and in this vs 3 the Person sitting upon the Throne is Identified as the Lord of Hosts as in Ps 24:10, and it says that the whole Earth is full of His Glory, again this harmonizes with what is stated in Ps 24:10
10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Now who exactly is the Lord of Hosts in Isaiah 6:3 ? Lets read the scripture in Jn 12:37-41
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Now here John inspired by the Spirit is identifying the One Isaiah saw in Isa 6:3 as the Lord Jesus Christ who performed miracles amongst the jews and they believed not on Him ! When Isaiah spoke of His Glory; So Jesus Christ is the Lord of Hosts, the King of Glory.
In Isa 6:1, Isaish said The King was High and Lifted Up Isa 6:1
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
That word lifted up is the hebrew nasa' and means:
Exalted to be lifted up, be exalted. Hence the Lord Jesus Christ after His Death we know was exalted to Highest Glory per Phil 2:8-9
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
However, this Exalted state of Glory Christ had before His Incarnation Per Jn 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Thats who Isaiah saw in Isaiah 6:1-3 as the exalted Lord of Hosts, King of Glory as Per Ps 24:7-10 !
To deny this scripture testimony of the Deity of Jesus Christ is simply unbelief !
Ps 24:7-10
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8 Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Jesus is God because He is the King of Glory, Notice here Vs 10
10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
The Lord of Hosts ! We know there is only One Lord of Hosts and lets read Isa 6:1-3
1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Now its interesting in this blessed vision Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on a Throne, which denotes a King, and in this vs 3 the Person sitting upon the Throne is Identified as the Lord of Hosts as in Ps 24:10, and it says that the whole Earth is full of His Glory, again this harmonizes with what is stated in Ps 24:10
10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Now who exactly is the Lord of Hosts in Isaiah 6:3 ? Lets read the scripture in Jn 12:37-41
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Now here John inspired by the Spirit is identifying the One Isaiah saw in Isa 6:3 as the Lord Jesus Christ who performed miracles amongst the jews and they believed not on Him ! When Isaiah spoke of His Glory; So Jesus Christ is the Lord of Hosts, the King of Glory.
In Isa 6:1, Isaish said The King was High and Lifted Up Isa 6:1
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
That word lifted up is the hebrew nasa' and means:
Exalted to be lifted up, be exalted. Hence the Lord Jesus Christ after His Death we know was exalted to Highest Glory per Phil 2:8-9
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
However, this Exalted state of Glory Christ had before His Incarnation Per Jn 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Thats who Isaiah saw in Isaiah 6:1-3 as the exalted Lord of Hosts, King of Glory as Per Ps 24:7-10 !
To deny this scripture testimony of the Deity of Jesus Christ is simply unbelief !
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In other words, you think yourself correct when incorrect.
beloved57
Well-known member
Did you read and understand post 669 ? Please go over the points I made with scripture, explain them to me.
keypurr
Well-known member
Then why did he need to be elevated?
God is the most high, Christ was not, that is why he could be elevated. Jesus is the son of the most high God.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
And what do you call this friend;
Philippians 2:6-10
King James Version (KJV)
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
keypurr
Well-known member
Lets check it out in another translation: NASB
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Note, this form is before he went in to man.
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Here he became a man.
Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
PhPhp 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Note: GOD exalted him, GOD elevated him. If he was God he could have elevated himself.
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every knee shall bow to him BECAUSE GOD commands it, not because Christ is God.
BR, put on your thinking cap.
beloved57
Well-known member
keypurr
Thats already answered. See Phil 2:8-10, He was elevated as a Man.
Then you do not believe the scripture. Isa 6:1-3, I just witnessed to that. The Most High and The Lord of Hosts are the same Being, you do not believe that ?
Yes, that has not been denied by me, but you have denied the scripture witness that Jesus is also The LORD of Hosts !
You are a unbeliever.
Thats already answered. See Phil 2:8-10, He was elevated as a Man.
Then you do not believe the scripture. Isa 6:1-3, I just witnessed to that. The Most High and The Lord of Hosts are the same Being, you do not believe that ?
Yes, that has not been denied by me, but you have denied the scripture witness that Jesus is also The LORD of Hosts !
You are a unbeliever.
beloved57
Well-known member
Go over my points in the post and explain each of them to see how they are lacking.
Dear beloved 57,
I'd have to go with keypurr. The only religion that really brings you closer to God is one that believes in Jesus as God's Son. And not that Jesus is God. God's spirit was inside Jesus' soul/vessel and that's why He said, "I and the Father are One". It is like two exact same flower vases with the same amount of water in them. There are two, but they are the same, yet they are different in the slightest way. Praise God and Jesus, (the Lord said to my Lord),
In His Love,
MichaelC
I'd have to go with keypurr. The only religion that really brings you closer to God is one that believes in Jesus as God's Son. And not that Jesus is God. God's spirit was inside Jesus' soul/vessel and that's why He said, "I and the Father are One". It is like two exact same flower vases with the same amount of water in them. There are two, but they are the same, yet they are different in the slightest way. Praise God and Jesus, (the Lord said to my Lord),
In His Love,
MichaelC
beloved57
Well-known member
If Christ is not God !
If the Lord Jesus Christ was not also God,as a Man, we face a serious difficulty in realizing His suitableness to vicariously substitute in the place of perhaps millions of others who were indebted to God's Infinite Law, for none but an Infinite Person as God, who is exalted over all Law, and who personally owes no obedience to God as all creatures do, could qualify. All other created beings do owe a debt of their own personal obedience to God, and so would not qualify to perform obedience in the place and stead of a number of men that no man can number, satisfying for them all , all of God's Infinite Law and Justice !
If the Lord Jesus Christ was not also God,as a Man, we face a serious difficulty in realizing His suitableness to vicariously substitute in the place of perhaps millions of others who were indebted to God's Infinite Law, for none but an Infinite Person as God, who is exalted over all Law, and who personally owes no obedience to God as all creatures do, could qualify. All other created beings do owe a debt of their own personal obedience to God, and so would not qualify to perform obedience in the place and stead of a number of men that no man can number, satisfying for them all , all of God's Infinite Law and Justice !
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