Jesus is God !

oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
keypurr said:
Apple you may find this interesting, I got it about four years ago from a friend.

What About The Alpha and the Omega?

Revelation 1: 8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and is to come, the almighty."

In Revelation 1: 8 God (he who sits on the throne) calls himself "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending... the Almighty. Then in Revelation 1: 11, Messiah calls himself "Alpha and Omega," the beginning and the end. Was he identifying himself as "he who sits on the throne?"

Revelation 1: 11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, and, what you see write in a book, and send it to the seven congregations which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphea, and to Laodicea."

That it is Messiah here talking in Rev. 1: 11 there can be no doubt for in verse 17 he repeats, "I am the first and the last," and then in verse 18 he says "I am he that lives, and was dead:" So, we know of a certainty that Messiah called himself Alpha and Omega, and the first and the last, but he did not call himself "the beginning and the end" here. However in Revelation 3: 14 Messiah calls himself the "beginning of the creation of God," then in Revelation 22: 13 he calls himself the "beginning and the end."

The people that say Messiah is God put forth the notion that when Messiah called himself "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end," he was calling himself God, since God called himself by the same titles in Revelation 1: 8. You have to love their persistence, but I'm about to show you how this cannot be true, because Revelation clearly distinguishes between "he who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb of God." First, lets discuss how God and Messiah could both be called by these same titles, and how, just because they both have the same title, it doesn't mean they are the same person.

To understand what Alpha and Omega and first and last mean, we need only understand that God is doing a work in the earth. He started it on day one of creation, and He's going to finish it. Of course God is the Alpha and Omega of his work, the beginning and the ending, but what about Messiah? How is he the beginning and the ending of God's work on the earth? Well, if you have to ask that you haven't been paying attention, and you have never read your Bible! Messiah IS God's work on the earth, and the culmination of His plan from the very beginning to the very ending! Messiah said it when he said in Revelation 3: 14, "the beginning of the creation of God."

How can God be a part of the "creation?" God and Messiah are both "Alpha and Omega," and "beginning and the ending."

We know that God was talking in Revelation 1: 8 when he said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending," then he says "he which was, and is, and is to come the Almighty." Also, in Revelation 1: 4 John says "grace be to you and peace from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before HIS THRONE." Thus, John starts out by talking about God almighty, continuing all the way down to verse 11. If any one wants to dispute this, just go get a King James Red Letter Edition. The words of Messiah are all in red, and you will see that verse 1: 8 is not in red. Thus, even the ancient scholars agree it's God talking in verse 1: 8 and not Messiah.


Didn't Messiah call himself
God in Revelation 1: 11?

The answer to the question is clear and a resounding, NO! In Revelation 1: 8 God gives four titles for himself:

"Alpha and Omega,"

"The beginning and the ending,"

"He which is, and was, and is to come,"

"The Almighty."

Then, in other places in Revelation, Messiah uses two of those same titles for Himself, "Alpha and Omega," and "the beginning and the ending." So, because Messiah uses two of the titles from verse 1: 8, everyone wants to assume that the other titles apply, too, including "the Almighty."

That's the strangest logic I've ever heard of. Here's how this flawed logic works:

Fred is a boyscout, a lecturer, a band leader and a football star. Bill is a boyscout, and a lecturer. Bill is Fred's son. Bill must also be a band leader, and a football star!


Just because God and Messiah are both Alpha and Omega and Beginning and Ending, does't mean they are both "the Almighty!" In Revelation Messiah never sits on the throne in Heaven! Revelation chapter 4 describes the throne, and it never mentions Messiah in there.

Then in Revelation 5 it says:

Revelation 5: 1
"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."

The one that opens the book according to verse 5 is "the Lamb of God, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah."

Revelation 5: 5
"And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof:"

The Lion, my friends, is Messiah! So, is Messiah sitting on the throne? He's already got the book in his hand then, and should open it any minute, right? WRONG!

Revelation 5: 7 "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."
Click to expand...

That is reading what is written!
 
Apple7

Apple7

New member
keypurr said:
Its way over your head Apple7, you will not understand it.
Click to expand...

I think that you need to start some new threads entitled: 'Pop's theology'...where the original languages are completely ignored as a prerequisite for discussion.

:dog:
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Then who did they see ?

Jn 6:46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

The Lord Jesus appears to indicate here that not any man hath seen the Father, that would be God the Father.

Now, if not any man has seen the Father, then who did men see when it says they seen God ? Ex 24:9-11

9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


The word God here is elohiym

If Jesus Christ's words are true in Jn 6:46, then they saw God the Son Heb 1:8

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
 
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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Who does Paul mean here ?

1 Tim 6:15-16

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Who is Paul referring to here ? God the Father or the Lord Jesus Christ ?
 
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Elia

Elia

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Jn 6:46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

The Lord Jesus appears to indicate here that not any man hath seen the Father, that would be God the Father.

Now, if not any man has seen the Father, then who did men see when it says they seen God ? Ex 24:9-11

9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Click to expand...


Bs'd

It's a fact that men cannot see God and live.

However, sometimes God plants a vision in somebody's brain, and then
he perceives in a vision an image of God, sitting on a throne.

But that is not God himself.

The word "seen" in the Hebrew Bible is many times used in a non-literal way, so too where the elders "saw" God.



Eliyahu
 
Elia

Elia

Well-known member
Apple7 said:
John 4.24 in its context tells us that proper worship of God is as a Trinity!

Father...Son (Truth) ...and Spirit.
Click to expand...

Bs'd

Here is John 4 with a LOT of context:

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3 So he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.

4 Now he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon.

7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”
The Disciples Rejoin Jesus

27 Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, “What do you want?” or “Why are you talking with her?”

28 Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” 30 They came out of the town and made their way toward him.

31 Meanwhile his disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat something.”

32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.”

33 Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?”

34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35 Don’t you have a saying, ‘It’s still four months until harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36 Even now the one who reaps draws a wage and harvests a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37 Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. 38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”

And, as everybody can see, well, that is: everybody except for Apple7, there is nowhere a trinity to be found in this text.


As usual Apple7 is seeing things which don't exist.

God is not a trinity, God is ONE!!!


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"



"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version



"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation



"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible


So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Apple7 said:
I think that you need to start some new threads entitled: 'Pop's theology'...where the original languages are completely ignored as a prerequisite for discussion.

:dog:
Click to expand...

Do yourself a big favor and listen to "Pops" theology. It will bring you out of the darkness and into the light.
 
Elia

Elia

Well-known member
Apple7 said:
I think that you need to start some new threads entitled: 'Pop's theology'...where the original languages are completely ignored as a prerequisite for discussion.

:dog:
Click to expand...

Bs'd

Keypurr, don't let yourself be bamboozled into believing that Apple7 knows anything about Hebrew or Greek.

I know Hebrew, and so I know that he doesn't know Hebrew at all.

Most likely his knowledge of Greek is on the same level.

Still, if you are serious about investigating the Bible, you should do a course Biblical Hebrew. The vast majority of your Bible is written in Hebrew, and a world will open up for you.


Eliyahu
 
Elia

Elia

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Click to expand...

Bs'd

Why is it that everybody wants to be a Jew, but nobody wants to do what it takes, namely following the law of God?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
God is Judge Himself !

We know Jesus is God Almighty, for it is He that sets Upon the Throne here at the Great White Throne Rev 20:11-12

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


We know also that God the Father appointed the man Christ Jesus / Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 to Judge the World in Righteousness Acts 17:31


31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And again we are told that All Judgment has been given to the Son John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

So by this Matter of Judgment, the Father is clearly attesting to the fact that the Son is God also, its clear evidence of His Deity and Godhead:

Ps 50:6

And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

The Father says to the Son Heb 1:8-9

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

None but God has the Ability and Essential Attributes to Judge all mankind, but God. He that is so qualified for such a immeasurable charge this would need to be Omniscience, in order weigh the hearts and motives of countless Millions upon Millions, to be able to know all the secrets of their hearts with pin point accuracy 1 Cor 4:5

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come [Jesus Christ], who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels[motives] of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

He will need to have perfect recall of every idle word of men Matt 12:36

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Every Work "Ecclesiastes 11:9

9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God[The Man Jesus Christ] will bring thee into judgment.

God here must be the Son ! Also "Ecclesiastes 12:14

14 For God [The Man Christ Jesus appointed] shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Now Solomon under inspiration has already written 1 Kings 8:39

39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men)

Now if Christ be not God, Solomon has lied, and the scripture cannot be broken, Jesus attests to His Own ability to know the hearts of all men Rev 2:23

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he[God] which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jer 17:10

I the Lord[Jesus Christ] search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
 
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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
God is Judge Himself ! cont

Now many Blasphemers contend that if Christ is also God, then why has it been given of the Father to Him to be Judge of all Mankind ? However it is to their folly, the very fact that God the Father gave such a business to the Man Christ Jesus, is the Father's attestation that the Son is God also, for none other than God could be qualified to Judge all Mankind, who is God.

So it will be also at this Time, The Great Day of Judgment and Wrath, that all mankind will confess [agree with, say the same thing] That Jesus Christ is Jehovah LORD to the Glory of the Father, since the Father has always attested to the Son being God. Phil 2:9-11

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord[Jehovah], to the glory of God the Father.

Jn 5:22-23

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Thats because the Judge of Mankind must be Essentially God for such a Business !

Heb 1:8

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Christ's Kingdom here will Judge the World at His Coming 2 Tim 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

At which His sceptre will appear to be Righteous Rev 15:3-4

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Thats How its going to be to the Glory of God the Father, and that's how and why all men will Honor the Son [As Jehovah God] as they do the Father, in the Day of Judgment, for which why the Father appointed Him Supreme Judge.

Then men will confess it, the difference being then however, those who are now being made to confess it at Judgment day, who did not before, they will be confessing it on their way to perdition 2 Pet 3:7

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

So those of us who are reading these words now, and do not believe the Man Christ Jesus is also Jehovah God, the Supreme Judge f all mankind, be sure we will confess it so in that Day, when we shall be consigned into perdition !
 
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keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Elia said:
Bs'd

Keypurr, don't let yourself be bamboozled into believing that Apple7 knows anything about Hebrew or Greek.

I know Hebrew, and so I know that he doesn't know Hebrew at all.

Most likely his knowledge of Greek is on the same level.

Still, if you are serious about investigating the Bible, you should do a course Biblical Hebrew. The vast majority of your Bible is written in Hebrew, and a world will open up for you.


Eliyahu
Click to expand...

I would like to friend, but this old man can not retain what he has already learned. I know Apple does not know as much as he thinks he does, but I give him credit for trying.
 
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