This has nothing to do with what was said in the video.
Jesus is God !
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This has nothing to do with what was said in the video.
Jesus wasn't perfect?
Bladerunner
Active member
What is a picture of yourself...Is it you or is it simply a representation of you. Thus, Jesus as a man (not a picture) is the image of God...Thus He is GOD.......Jesus is fully man and fully God. The Man was crucified for our sins and resurrected as the "Mashiach Nagid", Messiah, the King, the image of GOD.
Hasn't logged in since Sunday. Probably real life stuff.
So, I don't get it.
What is it exactly about the questions I ask people that make them disappear off of the website?
If I engaged the lunatic who doesn't think that prolific, public and repeated false prophecies doesn't falsify a religion even when the religion itself doesn't even try to distance itself from those false prophets, then he'd keep going until the cows come home or until I lost my mind and had a nervous breakdown.
Am I just supposed to be content with discussing religious issues with lunatic cultists and liars?
What is it exactly about the questions I ask people that make them disappear off of the website?
If I engaged the lunatic who doesn't think that prolific, public and repeated false prophecies doesn't falsify a religion even when the religion itself doesn't even try to distance itself from those false prophets, then he'd keep going until the cows come home or until I lost my mind and had a nervous breakdown.
Am I just supposed to be content with discussing religious issues with lunatic cultists and liars?
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You're not alone.
I do take a look at symbolism because I think the Bible is full of it. It is just another level of understanding. It usually does not negate the more direct teachings that many have and do understand.
I can agree with this, but for me understanding how God brought death into the world is quite enlightening. I like finding these nuances, because humans are asked to believe in super-natural spiritual truths. These nuggets make the spiritual workings of God more real/meaningful to me. Seeking to know God and his plan of Salvation through Christ helps reassure me that the super-natural is real and to be believed.
I agree on both points. Adding: Just like birthing was a process to happen over time so was death made a process to happen over time ... Physical death is instant regarding man's spiritual essence but even the elements from which it was created will be resurrected one day and for the saints - glorified.
Spiritual death does not happen instantaneously at physical death ... that is why the saints in their robes of white and the lost souls suffering must wait ... until God's timing for things.
I must disagree with you here. God is LIFE. Scripture tells us so. We can comprehend HE is life by .only reading the first chapter written by Moses. Gen. 1: The Spirit of God moved. God said. God called. God made. God set. God created. God blessed. Those are living thinking powerful spiritual qualities. God did impart life into humanity. Another way to say this is: God shared a measure of his living nature with humanity ... by a process figuratively described as blowing breath into the body of humanity.
God said life is in the blood and Moses described how the blood of Abel called out to him. Gen. 4:10 ... the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Now, whether the blood can actually talk or not I'm not certain, but I happen to believe God is omni-present within his creation and knows when a sparrow falls and it seems even when a man dies.
Check out these verses for some truth: Matt. 10 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him [God] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father [knowing].
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered...
You see God is in all things and all things are in him ... yet he is also able to separate by issuing boundaries. Dis belief in Christ is one boundary which separates the spiritually saved from the spiritually lost. Most Christians say this is what spiritual death is like ... and I would agree because the lost are predestined to hell and the Lake of fire.
I agree.
Well, we just see things a little different but mostly agree. It is sin that separates us from our salvation... but there are instances where people don't realize they are sinners and conviction comes from God. I think Paul was describing his conviction that he was a sinner in need of a Savior. His awakening which led to his devotion to Christ his Savior.
Yes, I believe the son of man suffered and died, but just like with a human being his spirit lived. He came to die for our sake, yet I know his spirit lived for he accomplished things after his physical death. He was sent on two missions. One for the lost in the days of Noah and again to instruct and encourage his followers among men. Two examples:Huh?
This is the opposite of what it says! It doesn't say that he (Paul) realized he was already dead! It says that he was ALIVE and then he died.
Now, we're back on track!
Let me ask you another question. This one might seem like it should be too obvious to even ask the question but you'd be astounded at the number of people who call themselves "Christian" who get the answer to this question wrong...
Did Jesus die?
Explain your answer.
I Peter 3:18-20 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waitied in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is eight, souls were saved by water.
Afterwards he was able to pick back up the dead body in the tomb and ultimately go to the Father in heaven with it. Thus being the first in the heavenly resurrection who made way for us to follow.
John 20:17 Jesus saith [near the tomb] unto her [Mary]. Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
Clete, I replied to two of your quotes from me today, Sunday, June 16,2024.
I get busy with life. and am very much involved in the lives of my two youngest grandchildren ages 7 and 8 and the life of my 100 year old mother-in-law. She was a Rosie-the-Riveter at Bell Bombers in Georgia during WWII, but now it's Lockheed. She is fairly independent at a senior citizen place, but needs things as she is growing weaker and more hard of hearing. She is amazing.
Her deceased husband went on the shores of France the day after D-Day and his tank was blown up right after that and only two crew members survived. Oh well, my life gets busy. For a long time now I have been using my spare time sitting at a computer, wasting time on iPhone games, listening to political podcasts, and keeping up with all the political injustices. Pretty much thoughtless activities; so, I'm trying to return to TOL. Hope I can keep up with the conversations.
BTW, I am a grandmother. You will get a kick out of my posts, even if you don't agree, if you read them with a slow Southern accent. Much like Scarlett's. LOL
LOL. Well, Clete, I haven't left yet...
Clete wrote:
If I engaged the lunatic, who doesn't think that prolific, public and repeated false prophecies doesn't falsify a religion even when the religion itself doesn't even try to distance itself from those false prophets, then he'd keep going until the cows come home or until I lost my mind and had a nervous breakdown.
I hope, since I'm a 'she and not a he' I'm not considered one of your lunatics. LOL Well, it would be hard for you to discuss things with people if you always agreed with everyone on TOL. It might even be hard to learn new things or think out of the box of the human brain. Just saying.
Alright so, first of all, I'm very happy to discover that you didn't just disappear on us here and I appreciate your responses. I do, however, want to keep the discussion focused on one issue and so I'm not going to respond to this point for point as I normally would. Suffice it to say, as you observed, we are mostly in agreement with some important but relatively minor difference that I feel like might actually be mostly semantic in nature.
So, you seem to be a touch contradictory here but whether you are or not depends on just what you are meaning by "his spirit lived".
I'm trying not to read anything into what you've said but my previous experience would seem to indicate that you've flipped your meaning of death right in the middle of the sentence here. You start by agreeing that death is a separation and that spirit death would be a separation from God and then by the end of the sentence you are saying that his spirit lived in the sense that it didn't cease to exist, which isn't what it means to live. My watch exists but it isn't alive and there isn't anyone's spirit that will ever cease to exist. The question isn't salvation vs. oblivion but salvation vs. existence in Hell apart from God.
It is my understanding of the scripture that Christ died in every way that any righteous person has ever died. His spirit was first separated from the Father (Matthew 27:46) and shortly after His spirit left His physical body (Matthew 27:50). He then spent three days in the grave, in what He called "Paradise", which is the place of the righteous dead and which is called elsewhere "Abraham's Bosom". The whole reason this place existed in the first place is because the righteous dead could not yet go to be with the Father because the atonement for sin had not yet been made. Christ, having been Himself the atoning sacrifice went, as the scripture you cited states, and preached unto the spirits in "prison" (prison being a figure of speech there). Then, as the other scripture you cite tells us, we find out that as of His resurrection, Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, which He did shortly thereafter. (We know this because He asked Mary not to touch Him the morning of the resurrection but then later that same day He met the disciples and issued no such instruction.) Thus, for three whole days, Jesus was separated from both from God the Father and any sort of physical body and was therefore truly dead in every sense.
You are not one of the lunatics. Specifically, I was alluding to the JW that was here trying to argue that Jesus was "a god" and not THE God.
JW's are lunatics. ALL of them. Totally a waste of time to discuss anything with them online.
I was hoping that something like this was the case. You'd be surprised how many people just up and disappear on me as soon as the discussion gets to anything interesting and so I wrongly thought that it had happened again. I'm very glad to find that I was wrong about that!
7djengo7
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I used to think the closest thing to an argument coming from JWs was the rhythmic flapping sound made by the Joker playing cards their door-to-door spokesmen would fasten against the wheels of their bikes. But then I found out they didn't even have that much, since it is not them, but instead their fellow heretics, the Mormons, who send out missionary bicyclists.
Let me give a try to explain what I think life is: First God is LIFE. He gives it in measures to human beings; therefore, there is a living spirit and a living body and when the two were joined then man became a living soul.
For a human to totally die, the body and the soul would have to be lifeless and obliterated. I happen to think this happens in the Lake of Fire. Another topic. Well this hasn't happened yet.
Well, Jesus had a living spirit [happens that God gave of his Spirit to Jesus without measure making him equal with God]. The Spirit of God was also associated with a living mortal body who entered the world through the womb of Woman as promised in Genesis 2. Jesus was spiritually God. God the Spirit did not die when Jesus died physically on the cross.
So, what's the mystery of the body of Jesus which required resurrection from physical death? It was the living image of God created for God's use within his creation and first mentioned in Genesis 1. Who used this living image created by God first? The Father LORD God used it. It was a supernatural image associated with the living invisible Spiritual God. When God the Spirit appeared bearing his living Supernatural body he became a soul.
Did you know God had a soul? God the Spirit became a walking talking being dwelling among men at times.
Leviticus 26:11-13a And I will set my tabernacle [dwelling place] among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. I am the LORD your God ...
Do you see the truth? When men said they saw God, they were referring to that living bodily supernatural form God was using. God was not the body. It was merely created for his use to fellowship among men. It is an eternal body which cannot die for God sustains it.
Now, back to Jesus. Jesus was God and he bore that same living image which the Father had, but its essence was of flesh and mortal. When his body died, God the Spirit appearing as, the begotten Son, did not die.
How might God the Spirit have given all of the spirit and all things of God? Can God be put in a box? No ... but God can give things over time as needed. Jesus was not denied anything but he did not know everything instantly. God shared at his will.
Now Jesus is like the Heavenly Father. They are each unique personages representing the ONE invisible God.
I just don't see how Jesus, God the Son, was ever separated from God the invisible Spirit. Isaiah 43:11 tells us succinctly: I, even I, Am the LORD; beside me there is no Savior. IOW, God is the Savior ...
BUT I do see Jesus as an individual of the God Head as much as I perceive the Father LORD/YHWH is an individual of the God head. For the Father and the Son each have their own heavenly bodies now.
One day our Risen Lord will introduce the saints to the supernatural eternal LORD Father. When we have seen them, we have seen the invisible God's chosen visible presence. I Timothy 6:14-17. ... which in his times shall show us who is the blessed and only Potentate, King of kings, and Lord of lords, Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto who no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting.
Jesus did not have immortality for he was sent to die. He received it after he finished his mission. It was the Father that lived in unapproachable light from the beginning. The LORD shielded Moses from its danger as he approached in all his glory and only let Moses see his back parts clearly as he retreated. Jesus will introduce the saints to the Father.
Now, where was Jesus before he came as the begotten Son?
He was the WORD who was God and was with God and he shared the bodily glory with the Father LORD. I know this from a prayer Jesus spoke.
John 17:4-5 I [Jesus] have glorified thee [Father God] on earth: I have finished the work you gave me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory I had with [shared with] thee before the world was.
Just like Jesus said: When you have seen me you have seen the Father. I think the Father could have said: When you have seen me you have seen the pre-incarnate image of the Messiah.
How were the Father and the Son both God? They both had complete access to all things of the Spirit. They each bore the living image God created for his personal use... and He knew he would use it repeatedly. That's why He said: Let us make mankind after our image. ONE image representing the ONE God as two unique individuals.
So sorry Clete. I ramble on because I have so much I want to say. I hope this was not a confusing post.
I apologize that my replies are so lengthy. I will try to focus on the question and be more concise.
This is a true statement but your argument is based on the converse of this. God is life but life is not God.
Indeed, even the statement, "God is life." is a statement that we really don't have a good grasp of. God isn't just alive, God is life itself. God isn't just loving, God is love. God isn't just righteous, God is righteousness, God is not simply rational, God is reason itself. Etc. I believe those statements are true but I can't tell you just what they mean. What I can tell you is that I do not worship life, love, righteousness or reason because those things are not God. In any other context, such wouldn't make sense, right? Usually, if A is B then B is A but that isn't the case here and so these are all a kind of figure of speech where we are saying something about God that isn't quite being communicated by the words we are using.
Why limit it to humans? Satan is a living creature as are all of the demons, are they not?
See the problem?
No, it wouldn't.
There is no biblical evidence for this and it, in fact, undermines the gospel. If Hell isn't forever, then the sin debt is finite and Jesus (God the Son) need not have died. God could have simply created someone of very great, but yet finite, value and sacrificed him instead.
Jesus is God!
Again, you seem to regress to a definition of death that make it mean to no longer exist. This is not a biblical definition of death.
Jesus was separated from the Father, He was thus spiritually dead. He still existed and was still God the Son and was able to take up his physical life again but had still experienced a separation from the Father.
I think this over complicates things to an unnecessary degree. God the Son, the Logos has always existed and is the Creator of everything that exists besides Himself. Jesus hasn't ever been just a physical body waiting around for God to indwell it. Jesus' physical body didn't exist at all until it was grown in Mary's womb (i.e. the image of God is not the equivalent of Jesus' physical body.)
The soul, basically speaking, is who you are. It is your mind, your emotions, your personality. It is that part of you that is YOU. This is just as true of God as it is anyone else.
No. This is definitely incorrect. God did not have a body before He was conceived in Mary's womb. He had a form, even one that was corporeal in some sense but whatever it was, it was not the human body that Jesus walked around the Earth in, nor is it the nail scared glorified human body that He has now.
No. Jesus had a human body that hadn't ever existed prior to it having grown from one of Mary's eggs.
Then we are back to square one.
Define what it means to die.
Not what happens to you after death or any other side issue. What does it mean to be dead? Before, you agreed that it was a separation. This bolded statement you've made seems to contradict that. So, what is it then?
This question does not make sense in the English language?
This question is a non-sequitor. What would it even mean?
I'm not following this. What does this have to do with what we are discussing?
I can't tell whether you're saying something false or if you're just using sort of loose language here.
No member of the Trinity is "representing" anything. The Father is THE God - period. Jesus is THE God - period. The Holy Spirit is THE God - period.
I didn't say that He was separated from the Holy Spirit, I said (actually it is the bible that says) that He was separated from the Father. I quoted the passage verbatim...
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
Jesus routinely referred to the Father as "my God" and there is no record of Him ever referring to the Spirit in this fashion. Thus, it was the Father that Jesus was separated from.
The Father DOES NOT have a heavenly body! I don't know where you got such a teaching but you would do well to drop it. It is definitely false.
The Father isn't invisible to heavenly beings right now, nor has He ever been so far as anything the bible says goes.
There is no evidence that Jesus' body would have ever died without having been intentionally killed. Death, including physical death, is a consequence of sin, which Jesus was completely free of and utterly untouched by.
Chapter and verse please.
Jesus and the Father are One!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
No one has ever seen God (The Father) at any time. What Moses saw was He who would become Jesus.
Did Moses See God the Father or the Lord Jesus at Mount Sinai?
- “No one has seen God [the Father] at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him” (John 1:18). 1 John 4:12 repeats that first sentence. That alone proves that Moses did not see God the Father.
- Old Testament texts that use the expression the LORD (Yahweh) are cited in the New Testament as referring to the Lord Jesus. Compare Exod 3:14-15 and John 8:58; Ps 23:1 and John 10:11; Isa 48:12 and Rev 1:17-18. See this article at Gotquestions.org.
- The LORD wrote the Ten Commandments with His finger. Twice. (Moses broke the first tablets.) Jesus has fingers with which to write. God the Father does not.
- The Lord Jesus stooped and wrote in the dirt with His finger (John 8:1-11). Twice. It is reasonable to speculate that Jesus was asserting that He Himself was the one who gave the Law to Moses.
- The preincarnate Lord Jesus appeared often in the OT. Most or all references to “the Angel of the Lord” refer to Jesus (see this verse by verse ministry article and this article at Gotquestions.org, which waffles a bit). Jesus appeared to Adam and Eve (Gen 3:8), Cain (Gen 4:6-15), Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 15:1-21; 17:1-22; 18:1-33), Hagar (Gen 16:7), Moses (burning bush, Mount Sinai), the three men in the fiery furnace (Dan 3:25), and many others.
That verse does not teach what you just stated. It says exactly NOTHING about "bodily glory".
Where did you get this stuff from?
Well, like I said before. It's probably best to just leave the scripture alone and just let it say what it actually does say.
There simply is no evidence that the Father has ever "used" a created image for Himself. Jesus (God the Son) is the singular mediator between God (The Father) and mankind.
Further, your comments here subordinate both the Father and the Son to the Spirit of God. They are not subordinate, they are equivalent. They are simultaneously the singular God and three different persons. The primary difference between the three having to do with their role, not their value, power, wisdom or divinity.
What you seem to be trying to do is to explain this. You can't. Not because it is contradictory but because we simply haven't been given the information needed to explain it. I suspect that we haven't been given this information because it is sufficiently outside the scope of human experience that there isn't any way to express the information in human language. It would be like explaining how a scanning electron microscope works to Abraham - only far worse.
A little confusing but I'm not complaining. I like this better than the single sentence sound bytes that most people tend to respond with on web forums.
Don't worry about the length. You've got nothing on me when it comes to lengthy posts! I've written some real whoppers!
Respond to what you want of my posts and ignore the rest and I'll do the same. If there's something that either of us skip that we really want responded to then just say so.
As for me, the central issue here has to do with just what it means to die and whether it would rightly apply to what Jesus experience at Calvary.
Clete
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Bladerunner
Active member
Really???Jesus was sinless/righteous according to scripture.
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It was a question and not a statement.
You also seem to have comprehension problems along with your tendency to lie.
Bladerunner
Active member
then you should believe the Bible when God tells you He was righteous and sinless.......yet you are focused on me...why?