Jesus is God !
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Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
You sure are and then some.
Jesus is God. In fact Jesus is fully God and fully Man, two natures perfectly joined into on e person. I know this is all above your head but try to keep up.
The second deepest mystery of the Christian faith concerns Jesus Christ-The God Man.
The terminology of “person” and “nature” is again used in describing this dogma. The Greek term “hypostasis” generally refers to person and The Hypostatic Union refers to the mysterious union of two natures (divine and human) in the single person of Jesus Christ. In a sense, The Hypostatic Union is the reverse of the Trinity. In the Trinity there is only one nature (divine) but three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the Hypostatic Union, there are two natures (divine and human) but only one person: Jesus Christ.
Many Christians never seem to fully realize that Jesus Christ is unique in the duality of His nature. God the Father does not have a human nature nor does God the Holy Spirit, but only God the Son does from the moment of His conception. All three persons, of course, have a divine nature.
This dogma was debated for a long time, but today overwhelmingly Christianity accepts it. For me, this mystery presents in some ways greater challenges than the mystery of the Trinity itself. How can the single person of Jesus Christ simultaneously experience agony in the garden in his humanity while continuing to enjoy the serenity that exists in the bosom of the Trinity in His divinity? I don’t know and neither does anyone else. The two natures, although mysteriously fused to the single personality of Christ, do not commingle which allows Jesus to experience agony and joy simultaneously in some mysterious way.
Of particular fascination to me, however, is the very fact that God did become one of us. Why did He? The best answer again is found in scripture:
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son”
John 3:16
The Incarnation is part of the divine plan for our salvation. Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, was the first among us to cooperate with God’s plan by freely consenting to the conception of His Son within her womb. The Son of God became one of us-as a stunning counter move to overcome the satanic scourge of sin. The devil was foiled by God in a way that no one could possibly have imagined. Only a divine person could adequately atone for the sins of humanity and Jesus Christ, in His humanity, played out that very role. It is difficult, in the extreme, to even begin to appreciate the degree of love that God has for us to make His only begotten Son the sacrificial lamb for our sake. If fully appreciated, in fact, we would simply never worry again.
God the Father sees all. He sees His Son dying in agony on Calvary-naked, betrayed, denied, mocked and abandoned. God the Father hears all including His Son’s cry from the cross:
“My God, My God, why has thou forsaken Me?”
Matthew 27:46
What father who ever lived would ignore such a plea at that moment, particularly one with the power of the entire universe in the palm of His hand? But, what did God the Father do with the fate of all humanity awaiting His response? Nothing. His only begotten Son fulfilled His mission and died. His Father did nothing to stop it. Of course, Jesus Himself spoke other words on the day of His death, which in addition to God’s love for us, may also serve to explain the lack of divine intervention. What words?
“Father forgive them for they know not what they do”
Luke 23:34
Those words were the greatest ever spoken on our behalf. Jesus knew that His Father would not turn down the request of His only begotten Son. Did Jesus act as our savior with that request? Absolutely! He was not seeking forgiveness merely for the Roman crucifixion detail nor for those among the religious and political authorities who had called for His death, but rather for all humanity whose sin, individually and collectively, nailed Jesus to His cross.
Christians are united in the belief that the atonement of Christ and the graces that flow from the cross are what bridge the otherwise infinite chasm between Holy God and Fallen Man. Regrettably, there are still divisions within the Body of Christ regarding the mechanism by which the free gift of salvation is accepted, but no difference regarding the necessity of Christ’s participation in that process:
“I am the way, the truth and the life: no one comes to the Father but by Me”
John 14:6
Jesus Christ by His atonement and by His call for forgiveness not only restored us to the Kingdom of God but also gave us a destiny now greater in redemption than it had been in creation. That is precisely why Christian theologians sometimes refer to original sin as the “happy fault” (felix culpa).
The Hypostatic Union elevates Christianity to the most awesome of all religions. Jesus freely partook of our humanity, so that we could partake of His divinity.
NWL
Active member
The hypostatic union makes no sense, you yourself said it"How can the single person of Jesus Christ simultaneously experience agony in the garden in his humanity while continuing to enjoy the serenity...I don’t know and neither does anyone else". Trinitarians realise the doctrine makes no sense and fully admit it, as you have done; to me its madness trinitarians accept a doctrine they know makes no sense.
Jesus cannot be in pain and not in pain at the same time, he cannot know all things and not know all things at the same time, he cannot be dead and be alive at the same time.
You don't understand how contradictory this concept is when compared to the bible and by what trinitarians themselves say. We would both agree that God cannot die, if I were to ask you or a trinitarian "did God die", the typical answer would be that Jesus deity didn't die but only his humanity his flesh died. Yet with the same breath you, and many other trinitarians, will also say "Only a divine person could adequately atone for the sins of humanity" YET you don't believe the divine part of Jesus died, as you believe only his flesh died! You see the contradiction, the doctrine makes no sense, hence why so many these days reject it. The ransom did not require God to die, it required a sinless man to die, and that's exactly what died according to the bible and even a trinitarian (when they know what they're talking about).
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Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
Jesus is God
Holy Spirit is God
Father is God
God is Trinity.
Jesus tells his apostles to baptize "in the name [notice, singular, not plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). This is a proof-text: three distinct Persons united in the one divine name. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul writes, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." We see this same unity of divine Persons in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11, Ephesians 4:4–6, and 1 Peter 1:2–3.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). It also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13). Everyone agrees the Father is God. Yet there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19). How can we hold all four truths except to say all three are One God?
And yes, Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).
Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).
That is your problem. It makes sense to the entire Christian Church though.
Jesus is fully God and fully man. He has two natures perfectly united in one person. The term used to describe this is the "hypostatic union".
The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.
Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.
So the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinguishable from one another in terms of hypostasis (the Scriptural term used, for example, in Hebrews, where Christ is the exact image of the hypostasis of the Father), but they are not "separate" (apart from one another or by themselves), as they share the same nature and same energy, but furthermore, as they are limitless, there is a perichoresis or "interpenetration" of the persons.
So there is similarity, but the similarity ends with the fact that the Divine nature is infinite and incorporeal, and human nature is finite and corporeal (as with all of created nature).
Hebrews: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power (ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ)
Holy Spirit is God
Father is God
God is Trinity.
Jesus tells his apostles to baptize "in the name [notice, singular, not plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). This is a proof-text: three distinct Persons united in the one divine name. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul writes, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." We see this same unity of divine Persons in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11, Ephesians 4:4–6, and 1 Peter 1:2–3.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). It also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13). Everyone agrees the Father is God. Yet there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19). How can we hold all four truths except to say all three are One God?
And yes, Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).
Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).
That is your problem. It makes sense to the entire Christian Church though.
Jesus is fully God and fully man. He has two natures perfectly united in one person. The term used to describe this is the "hypostatic union".
The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.
Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.
So the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinguishable from one another in terms of hypostasis (the Scriptural term used, for example, in Hebrews, where Christ is the exact image of the hypostasis of the Father), but they are not "separate" (apart from one another or by themselves), as they share the same nature and same energy, but furthermore, as they are limitless, there is a perichoresis or "interpenetration" of the persons.
So there is similarity, but the similarity ends with the fact that the Divine nature is infinite and incorporeal, and human nature is finite and corporeal (as with all of created nature).
Hebrews: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power (ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ)
Nanja
Well-known member
Amen Brother ! We can know without a doubt that the Father has ordained God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to Judge the world in righteousness Acts 17:31; which bears evidence and proof His Omniscience as God; to Know the hearts of all men accurately 1 Cor. 4:5 !
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NWL
Active member
We must remember what the word 'teach' means; for the bible to teach the trinity it means it explicitly expresses it in some detail, it never does. Rather, as many scholars and theologians admit, they piece and formulate the trinity doctrine by using verses that seem to vagule speak about it. Does Matt 28:19 explicitly teach that God is three persons who is one being and that those three persons are co-equal, co-eternal? Plainly no, rather it uses the singular word (name) when speaking about the Father, Son and HS.
Does the fact that the singular word is used in relation to the Father, Son and HS necessitate that the three are one? No, why do I say this, because the word 'name' in Greek (onoma) can refer to authority (Strongs concordance - onoma: a name, authority, cause). In Britain there is a saying that you may have heard, 'stop in the name of the law'; now, what is is the laws name in relation to that phrase? The law doesn't have a name, rather the 'name' in the phrase, 'stop in the name of the law' means to stop in the name of the governing authority. The same applied to Matt 28:19 when we are told to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and HS. How do we now this, because what is the name in Matt 28:19? It never states its YHWH, and if you want to say its in reference to that name you'd have to show where each person of the trinity is called YHWH for it not to be an assumption the name mentioned is the name of YHWH. Since Jesus nor the HS are ever called by the divine name in the scriptures we cannot assume that is the name the verse is speaking about.
It makes perfect sense that the name simply refers to the auhtoriy of the Father, Son and HS which is the reason why it uses the singular word for name and not the plural form.
I do not deny Jesus is called G-god, this is where most trinitarians fail to realise when speaking to unitarian or JW's. There are numerous people in the scriptures referred to as God, Angels are called Gods (see Psalms 8:5 compared to Hebrews 2:7), Moses is called God (Exo 7:1), Men are called Gods (John10:34), Satan is even called God (2 Cor 4:4), there are many beings called G-gods. When the bible calls these ones G-gods its not using the term God in its fullest sense, rather its using the term in the secondary lesser sense. The bible expresses this same idea that there are many gods but only one God who is the Father, see the next verse for proof:
NIV 1 Cor 8:5,6: For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Notice the above and what the verse states, there are "many gods" but still only "one God the Father", these is not my words but the bible words. Paul doesn't put Jesus in the category of the 'one God' but only highlights and puts the Father into this category as its only the Father who is the 'one God'. This begs the question, does Jesus being referred to G-god necessitate that he is the 'one God'? Well, does the fact Angels, Moses, men and even Satan are called G-god necessitate they are the 'one God', no! Rather it fits in perfectly with 1 Cor 8:5,6. Likewise, since it is clear that only the Father is called the 'one God' according to 1 Cor 8:5,6 Jesus is not the 'one God' and is rather called a G-god for similar reasons Angels, Moses and men are referred to as G-gods despite not being the 'one God'.
Again, only the Father is the 'one God' according to 1 Cor 8:5,6, Jesus is not mentioned as being the 'one God' and therefore can only fall into the category of beings of the "many gods" mentioned.
The trinity doctrine does not make sense to the entire church, hence the reasons why there are millions and millions of people who call themselves christians who do not accept it. Also, it was you yourself that stated you don't not fully understand it, so how can you possibly say you accept something when you don't fully understand what you accept; you accept a contradiction.
Again, one being cannot be dead and not be dead at the same time, one being cannot know all things and not know all things at the same time. As I mentioned before trinitarians deny that Jesus deity died yet at the same time state that 'only a divine being could redeem mankind', it makes no sense. If Jesus deity did not die and it was only his flesh that died then his divinity had no role in redeeming mankind.
It does not matter if orthodox churches agree with idea and concepts, the Jews in Jesus day agreed with many traditions that were rejected by Jesus and they were God chosen people and church at the time, so the idea that churches all agree with man made concepts does not prove anything anymore than it proved the Jews were correct in Jesus day.
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Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
I feel so bad for you. You typed all that stuff up and added pretty colors, and it is all gobbledygook. Go eat a turkey leg.
All of Christianity - Protestant, E. Orthodox, and Catholic - says you are wrong. Start your own religion.
All of Christianity - Protestant, E. Orthodox, and Catholic - says you are wrong. Start your own religion.
keypurr
Well-known member
Correction, Jesus has a God who is his Father.
Jesus is a creation as ALL images are creations. The spirit IN him is also a creation, a created form of God. Only the Father is non created.
keypurr
Well-known member
Spoken like a true Trumpster.
keypurr
Well-known member
The point is that Jesus is a creature not God.
beloved57
Well-known member
Jesus had a God and Father and is God
NWL
Active member
Not that what you said emotionally damaging to me, but I do not understand why you feel a need to try and be rude to me. Are you not able to leave your emotions out of discussions such as these?
You should feel sorry for yourself, not me, as it is you who is blind. I've back up everything I've said with the bible, you call this gobbledygook and yet I'm the one who is not a Christian according to you, despite the fact you reject what the scriptures clearly teach, prove me wrong.
Repeating something over and over does not change a claim which is false into something that is correct. The argument you are making is called 'an appeal to the masses', basically, it's a logical fallacy that suggests because a large number of people or agree (or reject) an idea that the idea itself is correct. As I have also repeated Protestant, E. Orthodox, and the catholic church are all in agreement the trinity doctrine was not taught by Jesus or the apostles but was a later development of men. True Christians do not accept revelations of men, rather true Christians accept God's revelation through the bible, you believe in a man-made doctrine that was nowhere taught in the bible, I do not.
The fact you've used zero scriptural reasoning with me and simply made claims without any type of supporting evidence should show you are incorrect and have no clue what you're talking about, please excuse me if this come across blunt, my intention is not to try and insult you but simply express what I believe to be true.
I'm glad you liked the pretty colors, here are some more for you.
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Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
Heresy.
NWL
Active member
You are the heretic by calling what the bible states, which keypurr quoted, herecy.
(2 Cor 11:31) "..The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.."
(John 20:17) "..Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Does the Bible state the Father is the God and Father of Jesus as the above shows?
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Nanja
Well-known member
Absolutely Brother, these unbelievers and liars that deny Jesus is God shall have their part in the second death, and all to the Glory of God Rev. 21:8 !
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death .
Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
Jesus is the I AM
Jesus is God.
1. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.
2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jesus claimed to be God.
6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
7. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Jesus is the Word.
8. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
9. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
OT
Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
NT
Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
NT
Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
beloved57
Well-known member
Amen Sister unless they finally turn out to be a elect vessel of Mercy and God grant them repentance from the captivity of the devil who hath deceived them.
Trump Gurl
Credo in Unum Deum
It is not your place to damm people to hell. Your judging is just as bad as their unbelief.
beloved57
Well-known member
I believe that part is true, Jesus said Jn 20 27
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.