This study explains shows, contrary to popular teaching, the scriptures that teach that Jesus Christ was created. This study also explains, that in spite of him being created, why he is still called God, why he existed in the beginning, and how he was able to create the world. The study can be found here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/10/0...n-who-was-first-to-be-birthed-into-existence/ . Let us commence a discussion on this study in this thread.
Jesus Christ, the Firstborn of Creation, Who Was First To Be Birthed into Existence
- Thread starter cgaviria
- Start date
Then demonstrate it in scripture. I have shown through scripture that this is not so.
No you haven't.
There is no scripture that says the Son was created.
glorydaz
Well-known member
6days
New member
In scripture we see various meanings to the term 'firstborn'. It can mean the person is the first child in a family. It can also be a title of preeminence, as it was with David. He was not the first child, but in Psalm 89, God called him firstborn. (Also see Jer. 31:9 and Gen. 41:51,52). Yes... Jesus has preeminence of all creation since He is the Creator. See Col. 1:15
Many of it being taken out of context. That's why it is important to know the basic of the whole context of the Bible.
If you don't know the priority of God and Jesus' messages, you will take popular and worldly doctrines. It is safe and gives you false sense of security.
To be called a "son" implies to be created. Why do you think he is called the firstborn of creation? He was first to be born, which is why he existed in the beginning with God.
No it does not.
The Son is called 'firstborn' because it can mean 'preeminence'.
Just as Israel [Ex 4:22] and Ephraim [Jer 31:9], and David [Ps 89:27] were called 'firstborn'.
None of those 3 were the 1st in sequence of birth, so it is obvious that scripture does NOT show us that 'firstborn' has to always carry the connotation of being 'first' in sequence as in 1, 2, 3.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at this verse which speaks of the appearing of the Lord Jesus, our great God and Savior:
"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).
The following passage speaks of us looking for that appearance and the "glory" which we will see will be the Lord Jesus' "glorious body":
"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).
The following verse is also speaking of the same "appearance" and the same "glory":
"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).
The following passage desribes this same appearance as a "hope":
"Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure
" (1 Jn.3:2).
" (1 Jn.3:2).
So the 'hope" and the "glory" in the following verse is referring to the glorious body in which we will see the Lord Jesus when He will appear:
"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).
That is why Paul refers to that glory as belonging to the Lord Jesus, our great God and Savior.
since the Lord Jesus is God then it is obvious that He was not created. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.
6days
New member
Rather than get your info from heretical websites... you should use God's Word.
Psalm 2:7 New World Translation "Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father"
Heb. 1:5 New World Translation " to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?
(God's Word specifically says the angels were created yet God does not say "You are my son" to angels)
Last edited:
That's because you do not understand who Israel is first among, who Ephraim is first among, or who the Psalm is referring to as first among. You picked out these verses at random to try to disprove that firstborn means born first out of a certain group. God does not speak arbitrarily nor unwisely, so if he speaks of someone being a firstborn, then rest assured they are a firstborn among a group that you have not yet identified.
To angels he does not declare that specific scripture, but elsewhere in scripture the angels are indeed declared to also be sons of God, "...you are all gods, sons of the most High...", "...and the sons of God saw the daughters of men..."
Do you not know that the elect will also be glorified as Jesus Christ was glorified?
Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear. (Matthew 13:43 [NIV])
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30 [NIV])
Therefore, glorification does not relate with never being created. It relates with receiving the ability to radiate light, which is what "glorified" means. Even Moses was "glorified", hence why he had to put a veil over his face, because the Israelites feared him. I have a specific study on this here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/03/06/what-it-means-to-be-glorified/ .
6days
New member
Yes.... we are sons of God. But God asks "to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”
The word 'son' has nothing to do with being created...contrary to what you said. Neither, you, me or any angel is ever called "the Son of God". It is a title.
Likewise...if you studied scripture instead of heretical websites, you would see that 'firstborn' is also used as a title...and nothing to do with being born or created.
jsanford108
New member
I am in strong disagreement with the article. While the theory put forth appears to work, it actually fails. Scripture, as many responses have pointed out, directly contradicts the conclusion and theory put forth by the article.
Also, from a Trinitarian standpoint (which I know not all ascribe to), it is also impossible. Christ, being the Son of God, and One With God, cannot be created, logically. God is eternal. So, His Son, Alpha and Omega, likewise, must be eternal.
From a simply Christian standpoint, Christ could not have been created, because He was "the Word in flesh." And "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God. And the Word was God." (Trinity proof again, apologies Non-Trinitarians, this was only meant to illustrate a "begotten not made" view). The Word was never created, because it was God. If Christ is the Word in flesh, His "flesh" would have been technically created (via Mary), but Christ as a whole could not have been created. For He is fully God and fully man. If one is fully God, then it is impossible to have been created since one cannot create themselves.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Also, from a Trinitarian standpoint (which I know not all ascribe to), it is also impossible. Christ, being the Son of God, and One With God, cannot be created, logically. God is eternal. So, His Son, Alpha and Omega, likewise, must be eternal.
From a simply Christian standpoint, Christ could not have been created, because He was "the Word in flesh." And "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God. And the Word was God." (Trinity proof again, apologies Non-Trinitarians, this was only meant to illustrate a "begotten not made" view). The Word was never created, because it was God. If Christ is the Word in flesh, His "flesh" would have been technically created (via Mary), but Christ as a whole could not have been created. For He is fully God and fully man. If one is fully God, then it is impossible to have been created since one cannot create themselves.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
No I did not pick those verses at random.
I picked them specifically to show you and everyone that "firstborn" in scripture does NOT have to mean 1st in sequence, the 1st born of a family or group.
The very fact that GOD calls David, Ephraim, and Israel "firstborn" should have been your first clue because there can only be one 1st born in sequence.
Not to mention that saying the Son was created goes against scripture that says the Son was both with GOD and was GOD.
And it also goes against scripture that says the Son was the creator of all things.
One cannot create all things and be the first thing created.
But these three are not in the same sequence, for neither of these three are siblings, and by you just stating that you make yourself obvious that you don't actually know what you're talking about, what do people of the world call it? "talking out of your butt?" As such, these scriptures do not disprove that "Jesus Christ is the firstborn of creation", meaning the first to be born of the one sequence of all created beings.
No doofus, the Son cannot be created if He is the one that created all things created.
Ephesians 3:9 KJV
(9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Revelation 4:11 KJV
(11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Revelation 10:6 KJV
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Exodus 20:11 KJV
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
6days
New member
We see in scripture that "firstborn" is sometimes used as a title. You have examples where it was used on people who were not firstborn biologically in a family.cgaviria said:
Also... as [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] pointed out, Jesus could not have created Himself... For in Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.