Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

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Dartman

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Alright, here's what an argument from silence is:

"To make an argument from silence is to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than their presence."
Here is the error in YOUR logic;
An argument from silence may apply to a document only if the author was expected to have the information, was intending to give a complete account of the situation, and the item was important enough and interesting enough to deserve to be mentioned at the time.

So, how important do YOU think "Jesus is worshiped AS GOD" is?
How important do YOU think "the deity of Christ" is?

Do you see your problem yet?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
No term of 'worship' is ever directed towards Abraham.

Keep trying...
The brothers of Joseph worshiped him as lord.

Genesis 42:6-10 WYC
6 And Joseph was the prince of Egypt, and at his will wheats were sold to [the] peoples. And when his brethren had worshipped him, (And Joseph was the prince, or the ruler, of Egypt, and at his will corn, or grain, was sold to people from all the lands. And so when his brothers had bowed before him,)
7 and he had known them, he spake harder to them, as to aliens, and asked them, From whence came ye? Which answered, From the land of Canaan, that we buy necessaries to our lifelode. (and he knew them, he spoke harshly to them, as to strangers, and asked them, Where did you come from? And they answered, From the land of Canaan, so that we can buy necessities to live.)
8 And nevertheless he knew his brethren, and he was not known of them, (And though he knew his brothers, he was not known by them,)
9 and he bethought on the dreams which he saw sometime. And he said to them, Ye be spyers, ye came to see the feebler things of the land (And he said to them, Ye be spies, and ye came here to spy out our weaknesses).
10 Which said, Lord, it is not so, but thy servants came to buy meats; (And they said, My lord, it is not so, but thy servants have come to buy food; )​

 

clefty

New member
Which part of "a prophet like you" do you not hearken to? Moses was a Law giver .... a NEW law, which included SOME elements of previous laws,
some? ALL 10...we are done here...the rest is commentary...


but the entire covenant was NEW. Jesus gave ANOTHER NEW LAW.
There is NO WAY Jehovah had in mind that Jesus was going to MERELY REPEAT the Mosaic Law
those some elements you speak

.... that does NOT match Scripture.
NO Christian I have met thinks he can worship another god...make idols...blaspheme His name...dishonor his parents...murder...steal...commit adultery...bare false witness...covet

NONE think that is allowed in the NT...ALL Christians accept that these commandments remain binding...

But mention the Sabbath and all the wheels fall off...suddenly its “AWWW HELL NAAAAW...all that was done away with...those dont apply we are raptured from those...grace alone” LOL

PATHETIC...

WWJD? Except that sabbatismos thingy...LOL


The ENTIRE law was fulfilled, completed, and "TAKEN AWAY" by Christ's death on the cross.
not shown from scripture...false witness has it He changed the customs Moses delivered

There are MANY examples!!
Keep the Sabbath ....versus ..... worship every day the same.
NOT TAUGHT NOR DEMONSTRATED
COMPLEX dietary law .... versus ..... God hath made that which WAS "unclean" to be "clean".
peter not once but twice interpreted his vision NOTHING eating swine...3 of the 4 things required dealt with clean meats remaining CLEAN...you do NOT make swine clean to eat by NOT offering it to an idol...

Worship in Jerusalem ....... worship in your heart/mind/spirit.
He NEVER needed a building or place...rather Mercy than sacrifice
COMPLEX Levitical Priesthood, and temple duties ...... Jesus is our High Priest.
He NEVER needed levitical system we did...now again we are what the ORIGINAL PLAN WAS...establishing HIM HIS LAW HIS WAY

Moses allowed divorce ...... Jesus says;
Mark 10:11-12 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Moses changed the original...Yahushua changed it back...DUH

Mosaic Law COMMANDED violence in specific cases ..... versus ....Matt 5:43-44 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
nothing there changed...just the application of that LOVE AS I LOVE YOU LAW...MERCY is learned how?


You are still confused. Yes, Jesus taught and demonstrated the New Testament way .... which is why he did NOT have the woman stoned that was caught in adultery. And, why Jesus did NOT violently oppose his killers. Jesus did not break the Mosaic Law .... BECAUSE IT WAS STILL IN EFFECT!!!!
Moses’ Law demanded both man and woman caught in the act to be tried not just the woman...and proper authorities to investigate and sentence...

Jesus DID teach MAJOR CHANGES IN THE LAW, as I have proved.
even love your neighbor was already in the OT...no changes...is why His people retain a sabbatismos...Heb 4:9

Isaiah knows...Isaiah 66:23
 

genuineoriginal

New member
False, and hilarious! Your whole God-blaspheming, Satanic ideology is FOUNDED upon the proposition that GOD changed. You claim there was a time when the Son of God was NOT, which means that God changed from NOT being God the Father to being God the Father.
The idea of an unchangeable god comes from the imagination of the Greek philosophers and has no bearing in reality.
Keep your pagan Greek philosophical ideas about what god should be out of our discussions about what God really is.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You, Dartman, are expressing the conclusion that "Jesus is never worshipped as God, ever."
Wasn't that statement made after the false conclusion that Jesus has to be God because someone worshiped Him?
Your basing your conclusion on the ABSENCE of statements that "Jesus was worshipped as God" in the Bible, a historical document.
He was objecting to a false conclusion.
Do you know the difference between an objection and a conclusion?
Genesis - Revelation shows that God is a triune Being, and Jesus is the second Person of the Trinity.
Objection: There is nothing in the Bible that teaches anything about a triune being.
Your Argument by Repetition has no basis other than it keeps being repeated over and over again without any substance behind it.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.





It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!
John 12:

These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?​
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.​
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John 12:40 KJV is a quote from Isaiah 6:9-10 KJV. Whose glory did Isaiah /'Esaias' see? Let's go look.

Isaiah 6:

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said,
Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I,
Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said,
Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.​
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying,
Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?​
Then said I,
Here am I; send me.​

9 And he said,
Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.​

Isaiah saw the glory of the LORD /Jehovah /YHWH /Yahweh /YHVH, according to the text.

It's a weighty thing to be a Nontrinitarian Christian, you have piles of passages to explain away, and meanwhile, with a correct understanding of the authentic Trinity teaching /doctrine, Trinitarians don't have to explain away anything, since all passages Nontrinitarians use to show the Trinity is false, are based upon misunderstanding the Trinity teaching /doctrine itself. iow it winds up being a bunch of straw man fallacies, when the authentic Trinity is correctly understood.

I used to be Nontrinitarian myself. I know from experience the weight you must bear.
 

Dartman

Active member
John 12:

These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?​
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.​
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John 12:40 KJV is a quote from Isaiah 6:9-10 KJV. Whose glory did Isaiah /'Esaias' see? Let's go look.

Isaiah 6:

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said,
Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I,
Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said,
Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.​
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying,
Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?​
Then said I,
Here am I; send me.​

9 And he said,
Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.​

Isaiah saw the glory of the LORD /Jehovah /YHWH /Yahweh /YHVH, according to the text.
Yes, he did. And Jehovah is the HIS and HIM in John 12:41, not Jesus. Jesus is "the arm of Jehovah". Jesus is Jehovah's servant;

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.
 

7djengo7

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If you don't know what you are asking, why would you assume I would know?
Go away troll.

Why can't you answer the questions I asked you?

Is THE ruler of all of Egypt equal to THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?
Is THE ruler of all of Egypt THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?

What's fun about despisers of logic such as yourself is that you are so guano loco that you imagine it is somehow virtuous for you to try to defy the law of identity. Only a deranged person could answer "No" to those questions, and even you know that. So, of course, for the purpose of hedging, you know that you must avoid answering "No", because, for you to answer "No" will be for you to embarrass yourself even further, by further manifesting your irrationality.

I guess you'd better, once again, try to somehow divert attention from your failure. Perhaps, once again, you'll do this by trying to live up to your self-given name, "genuineORIGINAL", and to show me just how original you are (by calling me "troll", "idiot", "stupid", "schlemiel", and "fool", and copy/pasting some bland, pop-culture, TV show image handed out to you by the internet). At any rate, you've, over and over, made it loud and clear that you absolutely refuse to answer "NO" to the yes/no questions I asked you, and that you refuse to answer "YES" to those same yes/no questions.

You think you're original? I can be at least as original as you, simply by ending my post with this: :)
 

7djengo7

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The idea of an unchangeable god comes from the imagination of the Greek philosophers and has no bearing in reality.
Keep your pagan Greek philosophical ideas about what god should be out of our discussions about what God really is.

Ooooo. Deep!

Now, go ahead and specifically cite which persons (if any) you are referring to, here, by the phrase "the Greek philosophers", and then quote, from their own writings, or from whatever ancient writings give an account of their sayings, the exact things they wrote/said, upon which you imagine you are basing your claim. If there is one thing I know about the so-called "philosophers" of ancient Greece, it is that there was never, in a 1,000-year period, anything but a perfect unanimity between each and every one of them, on every single, solitary point they ever discussed. There was definitely NEVER any controversy between any of them, nor opposing schools. So, of course, if you could quote even one of those guys, showing that he held to "the idea of an unchangeable god", we MUST, then, come to the conclusion that every single other one of them, also, held to "the idea of an unchangeable god", and that not a one of them ever contradicted it! In other words, it MUST be entirely out of the question that any "Greek philosopher" ever held to "the idea of [a changeable] god" (what YOU champion). Also, of course, it simply MUST follow that, since at least one of them held to "the idea of an unchangeable god", then that idea must have, as you say, "come from the imagination of the Greek philosophers". Red is the colour of sarcasm.

But, to affirm "the idea of an unchangeable god" is, necessarily, to deny "the idea of a changeable god", and, conversely, to affirm "the idea of a changeable god" is, necessarily, to deny "the idea of an unchangeable god". So, if "the idea of an unchangeable god comes from the imagination of the Greek philosophers", then it is impossible for anybody, prior to the time of "the Greek philosophers", to have affirmed "the idea of a changeable god", and to have denied "the idea of an unchangeable god". So, what you've handed to us is that none of the patriarchs, nor Moses, nor any of the other prophets and writers of the Old Testament, ever affirmed, or denied, either "the idea of an unchangeable god" or "the idea of a changeable god". Obviously, then, according to you, the Old Testament must be entirely silent regarding that controversy. Bravo, you ORIGINAL thinker; no parrot, you!
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Now, go ahead and specifically cite which persons (if any) you are referring to, here, by the phrase "the Greek philosophers", and then quote, from their own writings, or from whatever ancient writings give an account of their sayings, the exact things they wrote/said, upon which you imagine you are basing your claim. If there is one thing I know about the so-called "philosophers" of ancient Greece, it is that there was never, in a 1,000-year period, anything but a perfect unanimity between each and every one of them, on every single, solitary point they ever discussed. There was definitely NEVER any controversy between any of them, nor opposing schools. So, of course, if you could quote even one of those guys, showing that he held to "the idea of an unchangeable god", we MUST, then, come to the conclusion that every single other one of them, also, held to "the idea of an unchangeable god", and that not a one of them ever contradicted it! In other words, it MUST be entirely out of the question that any "Greek philosopher" ever held to "the idea of [a changeable] god" (what YOU champion). Also, of course, it simply MUST follow that, since at least one of them held to "the idea of an unchangeable god", then that idea must have, as you say, "come from the imagination of the Greek philosophers". Red is the colour of sarcasm.
Aristotle was a Greek philosopher, maybe you have heard of him?
His concepts had significant influence on others, did you know that?


"The Unmoved-Mover" in Aristotle's Metaphysics

Book L of the Metaphysics touches upon what Aristotle calls the "Unmoved Mover." In short, this is Aristotle's conceptualization of God which is worthy of our attention both because of the inherent interest of the topic and because of the significant influence this writing has had on subsequent philosophers as well as the theologians of Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

In Chapter 6, Book L, of the Metaphysics, Aristotle begins a discussion about "substances." One of the substances he describes is that of an "unmoved mover" which, he argues, exists by necessity and is eternal. For something to be eternal, it is neither created nor destroyed, but always has and always will exist. For something to be a substance, it exists by virtue of itself ("kath'auton") in the sense that its existence is not dependent on anything else--it just is. In contrast, Aristotle describes things that have "accidental" existence ("kata symbebekos") whose existence depends and adheres to an underlying subject.

So according to Aristotle the Unmoved Mover is a certain kind of "being" or "substance" just as a human being is a kind of "substance". It has certain essential qualities which are not accidental modifications. Unlike human beings or other "substances", the Unmoved Mover has a special unique quality--it is neither "moved" nor changed by any external agency. When Aristotle uses the word "moved", he conceives of more than just physical motion, but a state of being the effect of some cause or being affected by some external agency.

One of the distinguishing features of the Unmoved Mover is that there are no substances, or entities, in the universe that are able to cause any modifications upon it--in that sense, it is unmoved and thus internally motivated without exception. It is always the ultimate agent of any activity and never (to use an old fashion grammatical term) a "patient" of something external to it.

Now that we have a sense of where Aristotle is coming from when he uses the term "Unmoved Mover", it will be useful to consider why he found it necessary to infer such a being. The first assumption that Aristotle makes is the existence of change. Things are always changing in the universe, which he conceived of as a kind of kaleidiscopic dance of substances and accidents. If we are willing to grant the existence of change, we must necessarily infer the existence of time, since in the context of change, there is a before and after.

So then Aristotle is left with the following question: If we observe that there is always change and we observe that there is time, where do change and time come from? Aristotle argues that there must be some substance in the universe which keeps things in motion eternally, and so this substance itself must be eternal to do so. Aristotle continues by arguing that "nothing is moved at random, but there must always be something present to move it" (1071b 33-35). And so if one were to identify all the movements in the universe, one could theoretically trace all those motions to some motivating force. Here, one might visualize a billiard table on which all the balls are forever bouncing back and forth into each other and the walls of the billiard table. These balls must have something independent of them that causes them to remain in motion. And so Aristotle continues, "If, then, there is a constant cycle, something must always remain, acting in the same way." (1072a 9-10).

In Chapter 7, Aristotle explicates how this mover keeps things in motion. This mover is something that moves without being moved. Aristotle observes, "The object of desire and the object of thought move in this way; they move without being moved" (1071b 26-27).

 

7djengo7

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I did, but you are too stupid to understand.
Go away troll.

You know, I think I owe you an apology. See, I had missed, amidst the hustle and bustle of this vast torrent of posts from every which way, that you did, in fact, answer the two questions I asked you.

I had been asking you:

1. Is THE ruler of all of Egypt equal to THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?
2. Is THE ruler of all of Egypt THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?

And, I have been hounding you with the accusation that you have been stonewalling against those questions, because, so far as I could tell, you had not replied either with a "Yes" or a "No". But, that was a lapse, on my part. For, as it turns out, I have just discovered something I had overlooked: that you DID answer both of my questions, each one in the negative.

I asked you:

1. Is THE ruler of all of Egypt equal to THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?

As it turns out, your answer was:


I asked you:

2. Is THE ruler of all of Egypt THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?

As it turns out, your answer was:


Well, forgive me for having overlooked your answers to those questions, and for accusing you of not answering them.

But, now, you've got a problem, see. By answering "No" to those questions, you have further demonstrated your commitment to irrationality, and your hatred of logic. You see, it is IMPOSSIBLE for THE ruler of all of Egypt to NOT be equal to THE ruler of all of Egypt; it is IMPOSSIBLE for THE ruler of all of Egypt to NOT be THE ruler of all of Egypt. Even a school child, without training in logic, and without even having heard the term "the law of identity", could have told you that. But you are a hardened enemy of logic, and so, of course, you have answered "No" to those questions, and spit on the law of identity. Sad.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I asked you:

1. Is THE ruler of all of Egypt equal to THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?

As it turns out, your answer was:
Would you say that Paul was referring to Jesus Ernesto Gonzales Jr by his phrase "another Jesus"?
No, but Paul could have been prophesying about Jesus ben Ananias.

I asked you:

2. Is THE ruler of all of Egypt equal to THE ruler of all of Egypt? Yes or No?

As it turns out, your answer was:
Would you say that Paul was referring to Jesus Ernesto Gonzales Jr by his phrase "another Jesus"?
No, but Paul could have been prophesying about Jesus ben Ananias.
It appears that you are delusional.
Go away troll.
 
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