James White to Debate Bob Enyart on Open Theism

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Well, your perception was wrong.
It happens.

Yep. But sometimes its valid inference from apparent implication.

If you are unsure what the question is, why try to give an answer?

I answered.

C: Neither

You don't get to pretend the question encompassed the answer.

Just wait and follow along with the thread, and maybe it will become a little clearer to you.

No need. Everything is clear... to me. Others, not so much.

Of course, this is a public forum, so you can give multiple knee-jerk reactions if you feel like it. It may be irritating, but no one will stop you.

The inverse is also quite applicable, along with the same result. It's a staple here at TOL.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
LOL. Obviously. That's the whole problem with the high-context English language that you and others are so oblivious to. But the adamant concepts and vagueries never stop, though you're far from the worst culprit.

So... Everyone goes around defining things they don't understand. And neither you nor others have defined anything anyway. Just conceptualized and declared.

The really cool thing about faith is those who think they're so smart never come close to knowing what it is. Part of God's plan from the start.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
The really cool thing about faith is those who think they're so smart never come close to knowing what it is. Part of God's plan from the start.

No. The real problem is those, like the vast majority, who conceptually mistake an English dilution of hope for faith and never actualy have true hope OR faith. And they never understand that faith is a hypostasis.

It isn't about smart. It's about knowledge (epignosis) abounding from love, which isn't and can't be the puffed up knowledge (gnosis) most have and exhibit.

Toss in oida knowledge and someone might actually have something besides false hope and faith.

Faith in faith is a distraction. Few even know what it is, whether they have it or not.

So your semi-veiled judgment of my salvation is meaningless passive-aggressive ad hominem.

One of the key culprits is the high-context English language that has sculpted thinking patterns since gestation in the womb. You literally can't know anything any other way, and compensating low-context culture just exaggerates it.

If you knew what the structure of your own native first language has done to you in the hands of the enemy according to his devices, you'd be livid at that violation at the core of your being.

"Knowing" is a spiritual thing, but one has to "know" the difference between the kinds of knowledge. Few do. But it doesn't keep anyone from adamantly conceptualizing everything to death in total or partial error.

But at least you have a nicely sarcastic sense of humor. It just doesn't actually mask anything, even though I appreciate it more than most.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
If I didn't, I'd probably be too stoned to care whether you make sense or not. :chuckle:

Yeah, I seldom make sense to anyone at first. But after introducing some vocab and relentlessly forcing the high-context English thinking into low-context patterns of inspired scripture, others grow exponentially out of their stuporous stagnation and oblivion.

You just can't really know what that means because you're stuck in your own "seem-right" way. That's the status quo in the apostate churches at large.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
No. The real problem is those, like the vast majority, who conceptually mistake an English dilution of hope for faith and never actualy have true hope OR faith. And they never understand that faith is a hypostasis.

It isn't about smart. It's about knowledge (epignosis) abounding from love, which isn't and can't be the puffed up knowledge (gnosis) most have and exhibit.

Toss in oida knowledge and someone might actually have something besides false hope and faith.

Faith in faith is a distraction. Few even know what it is, whether they have it or not.

So your semi-veiled judgment of my salvation is meaningless passive-aggressive ad hominem.

One of the key culprits is the high-context English language that has sculpted thinking patterns since gestation in the womb. You literally can't know anything any other way, and compensating low-context culture just exaggerates it.

If you knew what the structure of your own native first language has done to you in the hands of the enemy according to his devices, you'd be livid at that violation at the core of your being.

"Knowing" is a spiritual thing, but one has to "know" the difference between the kinds of knowledge. Few do. But it doesn't keep anyone from adamantly conceptualizing everything to death in total or partial error.

But at least you have a nicely sarcastic sense of humor. It just doesn't actually mask anything, even though I appreciate it more than most.

Ah, and we see what it means for the pot to call the kettle black. :chuckle:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Yeah, I seldom make sense to anyone at first. But after introducing some vocab and relentlessly forcing the high-context English thinking into low-context patterns of inspired scripture, others grow exponentially out of their stuporous stagnation and oblivion.

You just can't really know what that means because you're stuck in your own "seem-right" way. That's the status quo in the apostate churches at large.

Relentlessly forcing a baby to eat make him puke on his papa. Welcome to the real world. :carryon:
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Ah, and we see what it means for the pot to call the kettle black. :chuckle:

I think if you'll remember, I'm the one who indicated seeing your spiritual maturity. Regardless of that, I don't judge you as unsaved.

I think sometimes the "tone" in posts comes from various approaches of addresssing an individual and still putting forth a context to, for, and about others in general.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Relentlessly forcing a baby to eat make him puke on his papa. Welcome to the real world. :carryon:

I don't force people. Obviously. That's virtually impossible.

But I won't revert to high-context generalities and concepts from others who don't even understand the faulty foundation of their own thinking from language, etc.

And I won't just attempt to build another high-context structure alongside the flaming tower of high-context English vagueries of thought at its core.

So the "relentless forcing" is a matter of refusing to budge from low-context thought that is the foundation of scripture and the faith itself. It has nothing to do with forcing others. But those who access this teaching never go back, because it exposes the fallacies and errors at the fundamental level of the thinking processes that have been changed.

No amount of engineered "cognitive drift" by the enemy of our souls will sway the foundation of my understanding from that only valid perspective. So the "forcing" is my lack of acquiesence to all the silliness.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
For anyone who would like to know...

High-context languages are those that depend upon a pattern of context to develop concepts from/as content, rather than allowing the specific words to clearly define concepts that are then used in context to present content.

English:
I love my mom.
I love my wife.
I love my dog.
I love my job.
I love bicycling.
I love football.
I love ice cream.
I love naps.
I love (nearly infinite possibilities).

The overall meaning is a concept derived from the context, not the main semantics and their definition applied to the context. High-context languages depend upon context first.

In the above examples, love is not the definer of concept. The context of usage of the word love determines the definition. In low-context languages, definition of words is preeminent, and those definitions determine context.

So in English, words can be used exhaustively without ever really having more than a conceptual understanding of their meaning. Clear definitions and applications of individual semantics aren't the focus to determine content of thought and speech. Context is the priority before such true meaning.

So English-speakers have their thought and speech developed to consider generality before specificity, and specificity can be highly subjective at some variable point for all thinkers and speakers. That's because context predominantly determines content for concept.

Thought and speech (or other expression, especially writing) is logos. Rhema is the content; the thing thought and spoken about, the subject matter or substance of thought and speech.

High-context languages use context to determine concept to establish content. Content is rhema, whereas concept is logos. So those languages are literally patterning thought to determine rhema from logos.

This is invariably how man's own logos produces another rhema that is distinct from God's by any margin or variance, even when using the translated words of scripture. And that's one of the fundamental reasons why there are so many versions of singular doctrines.

Individual minds determine concepts based upon context that is then assigned as content. That's the opposite of hearing God's rhema for faith. So the faith that comes from high-context logos (thought and speech) has some/most/all of its origin in false rhema (content).

This occurs at the sub-cognitive level. The sub-conscious is part of the heart, just as the conscious is. Language is both sub-conscious and conscious. We dream with the inclusion of language, and all dreams are sub-cognitive.

Language is in our hearts, and high-context language shapes and patterns the heart, beginning at the limbic level of sub-consciousness. That's why everybody has a difficult time with any variance in context between languages in culture.

Those with high-context language develop low-context culture to compensate. The inverse is true, as well. That's why, for instance, asian low-context languages and their high-context cultures don't align with ours as readily as European and others that are similar. It's not race-based. It's language and culture based. "They" don't "get" our humor and figures of speech. That's because they have fundamentlally different patterns of thought.

Greek is possibly the lowest-context language ever, while English is possibly the highest-context language ever. This affects not just translation, but the overall meaning in differently-functioning minds.

That's why I refer to Greek with specific definitions and applications for usage. It's to pursue God's rhema before allowing language to pervert my logos of thinking and speaking (expressing). And that's why others, at least initially, have difficulty understanding.

It's because I relentlessly pursue God's rhema over my own nebulous logos, which can express any other content as mere concept from context.

Languages all came from Babel. The enemy has seized upon that confusion, and it's no accident that English is the modern predominant first-world mechanism to determine all thought and expression, and to drive all culture to compensate.

This is infinitely more fundamental and important to understand than what someone THINKS they actually know. That logos has established its own pattern of developing according to an assigned content as rhema, and it's only a concept.

I've spent many years battling over Theology Proper, because modern English and its increasingly shallow usage and understanding has turned the Trinity into a very low concept of "three guys on a couch". A false logos leads to another rhema, and it may not even be salvific.

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.

Our very foundational substantial reality of existence (hypostasis) that underlies our essential being (ousia) is determined by whatever is in our hearts.

English and other high-context language forms the heart with content that is NOT God's rhema, and patterns a lifetime of thought to determine its own content AS rhema instead of hearing God's for faith.

It can't override God's grace to bring faith, but it is an obstacle both before and after.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
I think if you'll remember, I'm the one who indicated seeing your spiritual maturity. Regardless of that, I don't judge you as unsaved.

I think sometimes the "tone" in posts comes from various approaches of addresssing an individual and still putting forth a context to, for, and about others in general.

I do remember and I don't judge you as unsaved either....only pretentious, and unaware that most of what you say is nothing but Greek to me. I had a neighbor lady from Mexico who didn't speak a word of English. We would sit out on the patio and smile at each other, and I would try to offer her coffee (called it java) and she'd smile. That was as far as we ever got. It just seems a pity that you act like everyone else is so far below you. That's just wrong...in any language.
 
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