Hi and there is a DIFFERENCE between CHARIS / GRACE and the Dispensation of the GRACE OF God or AGE !!
dan p
ECT Israel is not the BOC
- Thread starter Tambora
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Hi and there is a DIFFERENCE between CHARIS / GRACE and the Dispensation of the GRACE OF God or AGE !!
dan p
Why do you think God created humans?
When was Christ appointed to be the sacrifice for sin?
whitestone
Well-known member
lol, those three Greek goddess's and their understanding of it,,,
Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
(25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
(26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
(27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
(28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
(29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
(25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
(26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
(27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
(28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
(29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Read the following verse with the fact in mind it is speaking of present tense.
At the time Paul wrote this, Israel of the flesh was STILL the ones all these things belong to.
Romans 9 KJV
(4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
(4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
At the time Paul wrote this, Israel of the flesh was STILL the ones all these things belong to.
Interplanner
Well-known member
but Christ had come and none of those things was left unmoved.
Hi and you NAILED it , as ARE / ESTE is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and in the Indicative MOOD of a FACT !!
dan p
Hi and you NAILED it , as ARE / EISI is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and in the Indicative MOOD of a FACT !!
dan p
Interplanner
Well-known member
Present tense, yes, but not with the same meaning they used to have because Christ had come. I get the impression from you that almost nothing took place when Christ arrived. Invisibility. I don't get that impression from the NT. It get it from D'ists.
Hi and the PRESENT TENSE speaks to the TIME of Paul , but we know that by then Israel had been set aside as 2 Cor 3:13-17 says and you can not DENY !!
dan p
Only the elect among them, and it was the elect who became the Christians who all believers are joined to, as the one nation of God--
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
LA
Paul was not set aside, neither were the multitudes who accepted Christ.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day. Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
LA
Paul was not set aside, neither were the multitudes who accepted Christ.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
LA
Hia , and I never said that Paul was set aside , FOR ONE !!
Israel was set aside in Luke 13:6-9 and in 2 COR 3 :13-17 , so get your story straight !!
Israel is a NATION and as a Nation is not in the B O C , so where is your PROOF ??
dan p
Interplanner
Well-known member
Nope.
Paul just got through telling of his sorrow over his kinsman according to the flesh (Israel) because they were NOT saved.
THOSE are the ones Paul says are STILL (present tense) the ones that the adoption, glory, covenants, the law, service, and promises belong to.
'THOSE' is not the BOC.
'THOSE' is Israel according to the flesh.
That's one of the dumbest things you've said yet.
"Nothing took place" ---- bull.
"Invisibility" ---- bull.
GOD became flesh and walked among mankind.
A virgin birth.
Turned water into wine.
Healed the sick.
Raised the dead.
Cast out demons.
Walked on water.
Fed thousands.
Sinless.
Crucified.
Rose from the dead and walked among mankind.
Ascended into heaven.
Just to name a few things.
So, no, you do not get that impression from D'ists.
It was a dumb thing for you to even say.
No No.
Paul was concerned about the elect of Israel, not the ones among Israel of the flesh who were not chosen.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Those of Israel of the flesh who did not believe then along with all Isrealites of the flesh who have not since, and will not believe in the future, are not the true seed of Abraham.
LA
Yes yes.
Your obviously poor understanding of the most basic rules of grammar has you screwing up Paul's intended meaning in those passages.
Earlier in Romans, just after he had proven much of Israel having come short of the glory of God in chapter two, he pauses for a moment in chapter three to relate that just because most of Israel has been found in Unbelief; that does not mean they all have; nor that God's Promises concerning that Nation are over with...
Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
He then returns to where he left off at the end of chapter two - the majority of Israel in Unbelief - in fact; no better off than the Gentiles, in their same Unbelief.
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
He then deviates from that two-fold issue once more (that most in Israel have not believed, but some have) and does not take that up again until the following once more...
Israelites in General...
Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Believing and Unbelieving Israelites...
9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
In short, he is addressing the issue of Believing and Unbelieving physical descendents of Abraham through HOW he is using words, as to WHAT he has ALREADY SAID about such things BEFORE.
Basic Rules of Grammar 101.
Overall Narrative; Scope; Context; etc.
Rom. 5:8
Prov. 27:17
Acts 17:11,12
Interplanner
Well-known member
I meant none of those things of course. You are just a vapid literalist. I meant all the things the NT says took place in Christ: the enthronement on "David's throne", the fulfillment of everything promised to the fathers, the fulfillment of the hope of Israel for which in the 1st century 'they serve God night and day', the enactment of the new covenant so that the nations would hear his Gospel, etc, etc, etc.
So, unfortunately, the dumbness award goes to you. You are two busy trying to find two gospels, programs, destinies, purposes in the Bible because it supposedly makes it so clear.
You do not grasp the emotion of Rom 9's opening. He GRIEVES that they had all those things but reject being saved (justified). This same thing is said in Acts 26:7. Their worship system is totally functioning, but 'it is because of this hope (believed to be fulfilled in the resurrection) that the Jews are accusing me.'
It is only those who have faith in that resurrection of Christ who are counted/reckoned/considered sons of Abraham, says the NT--about 10x.