Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

Jose Fly

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Uh, no. It was you who popped up in this thread with a rehash of a previous conversation, one where you asked the same question and it got answered.
Then how about restating those answers? They're basically yes-no questions so it shouldn't take long.

Of course we both know you won't.

The conversation is linked right there. The answer I provided is right after the post it leads to.
I don't see any links. What post is it in?

You're just desperate
Desperate? Why would I be desperate? No one uses young-earth flood geology for anything other than fundamentalist apologetics. Universities don't teach it. No scientific organization endorses it.

It's just something a tiny number of people argue about over the internet.

The tale of the tape is clear.
Definitely. Young-eath creationism is completely irrelevant.

But it is fun to watch folks like you try and defend it.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Genesis 1 makes a distinction between the firmaments.

Not in normal language. You need a priest to interpret it for you to come up with that. That bothers me.

Tell me, Stripe, did you believe in the two-firmament interpretation BEFORE you heard of Walt Brown? Do you know of anyone who did?
 

JudgeRightly

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Not in normal language. You need a priest to interpret it for you to come up with that. That bothers me.

Yes, in normal language.

"John went to the john."

Same word, completely different meaning with the word "the" before it.

Tell me, Stripe, did you believe in the two-firmament interpretation BEFORE you heard of Walt Brown? Do you know of anyone who did?

No, because CPT and VCT have been the only ones I've known about before hearing the HPT. Common case of "believe what we're taught."
 

Stripe

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Not in normal language. You need a priest to interpret it for you to come up with that. That bothers me.
The Bible describes a firmament named Heaven and a firmament of the heavens. That's a distinction in normal language.
 

Derf

Well-known member
The Bible describes a firmament named Heaven and a firmament of the heavens. That's a distinction in normal language.

Even if there are two firmaments described, which I contest, the second one is not described nor named nor mentioned prior to Gen 1:14, where the phrase "firmament of the heavens" is first used (though never described).

If that is your dividing line--that all of those references from Gen 1:14 on are a different firmament--then Gen 1:9's "heaven" must refer to the previously mentioned firmament, where the actually described firmament is named. Having it refer to the thing in Gen 1:14, without using the same name as Gen 1:14, nor having a name different from Gen 1:9's firmament would be a great example of misleading.

If that firmament, called "heaven", is the subject of Gen 1:9, and Gen 1:9 says the waters are gathered into ONE place, and Gen 1:10 calls this gathering of waters "Seas", and the seas are above the firmament, then Gen 1:9-10 is contradicting itself when it says the waters under the firmament are actually the seas above the firmament.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Yes, in normal language.

"John went to the john."

Same word, completely different meaning with the word "the" before it.

No, you're not using a complete example. It would be something like this:

1. The toilet had water in it. We call the toilet "John".
2. The toilet john let all of the water out.

And JR says: "And you can see from the statements above that there are two toilets, one that is a john, and one that is not a john."

If that is confusing to you, then you are starting to understand my point.

Edited in:
No, because CPT and VCT have been the only ones I've known about before hearing the HPT. Common case of "believe what we're taught."
And on the CPT and VCT statement, this is what I was saying: you are requiring a theory before you read the passage. But we should always endeavor to understand scripture on its on, before we come up with a theory. The theory should reflect what we read in the scripture, rather than forcing the scripture to reflect what we theorize.
 
Last edited:

Derf

Well-known member
It doesn't say "under the firmament."

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

No, it says "under the heaven", immediately after it named the firmament "heaven".

Let's go back to the john example.

The word for toilet is "john". The john has water in it.

Question for you: Is there water in a toilet in those statements? If you answer anything but "yes", then you are bringing into the conversation about a toilet, preconceived notions about what a toilet is, and what a john is. These preconceived notions introduce different meanings to words that may or may not be valid.

JR suggested that the HPT helped him to see what the text means in a different way than the VCT and the CPT did.

What we need to do, in all cases, is to read the scriptures as much as possible without preconceived notions informed by our theories, in order to determine if the theories conflict with scripture.

If you do that, you will find that Walt's theory conflicts with scripture. This can be corrected, but until it is, it puts his theory in the position of going against scripture. And if we believe in the truth of scripture, we have to reject those parts of Walt's theory.
 

Stripe

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No, it says "under the heaven", immediately after it named the firmament "heaven".
Right. We don't need to talk about toilets.

Your contention is it is unacceptable to believe that those two references to heaven might be to different concepts.

However, you haven't given much that is convincing. Your best argument is that they are linked by proximity. That's something to consider, but a more important factor would be context.

The context of v8 is God naming an item.
The context of v9 is an adjective phrase — used to modify other items in scripture, like bird, hills and men — that tells us it was all things on Earth of that category that were affected.

That very readily might lead translators to capitalize the v8 instance and leave it singular, while making v9 plural and lower-case, as my NKJV does.

I'm not a scholar of Hebrew, but I think my analysis — perhaps guess is a better word — is reasonable.

I don't have the knock-down refutation of your challenge, but I don't think I've been KOed myself. :)

What we need to do, in all cases, is to read the scriptures as much as possible without preconceived notions informed by our theories, in order to determine if the theories conflict with scripture.
I disagree wholeheartedly.

We should rather be open regarding our preconceptions and willing to discard them when they are shown to be impossible.

Walt's theory conflicts with scripture.

I don't think you have brought enough to the table to assert that with confidence. I'll admit there are some slightly tenuous issues of grammar and sense with Brown's mapping onto scripture — things like you have raised — but those problems are not fatal to his ideas, my limited knowledge notwithstanding.

Nothing that might not be explained with the right knowledge.

Or, perhaps further insight will indeed show that his theory needs reworking.

However, I think it's best to leave possibilities on the table.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
 

Stripe

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By the way, here is an image I made ages ago that describes what we believe. I've been meaning to improve it:

attachment.php


One day...

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
 

Derf

Well-known member
Right. We don't need to talk about toilets.

Your contention is it is unacceptable to believe that those two references to heaven might be to different concepts.

However, you haven't given much that is convincing. Your best argument is that they are linked by proximity. That's something to consider, but a more important factor would be context.

The context of v8 is God naming an item.
The context of v9 is an adjective phrase — used to modify other items in scripture, like bird, hills and men — that tells us it was all things on Earth of that category that were affected.

That very readily might lead translators to capitalize the v8 instance and leave it singular, while making v9 plural and lower-case, as my NKJV does.

I'm not a scholar of Hebrew, but I think my analysis — perhaps guess is a better word — is reasonable.

I don't have the knock-down refutation of your challenge, but I don't think I've been KOed myself. :)

I disagree wholeheartedly.

We should rather be open regarding our preconceptions and willing to discard them when they are shown to be impossible.



I don't think you have brought enough to the table to assert that with confidence. I'll admit there are some slightly tenuous issues of grammar and sense with Brown's mapping onto scripture — things like you have raised — but those problems are not fatal to his ideas, my limited knowledge notwithstanding.

Nothing that might not be explained with the right knowledge.

Or, perhaps further insight will indeed show that his theory needs reworking.

However, I think it's best to leave possibilities on the table.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Let me try one more thing. Vs 9, as you pointed out, has "heaven" used in a prepositional phrase that modifies "waters". Within the prepositional phrase are the preposition "under" and the object of the preposition "heaven". And one more thing, the definite article "the". I showed before how that definite article shows up in the Hebrew as a suffix added to "heaven".

There are two ways a definite article is used to indicate, definitively, which item is being talked about. One way (1) is for the item to be the only one of its kind, and the other way (2) is to be referring to an item that is referenced elsewhere, either previously, or in the same sentence.

Here are some examples:
1) The Lord our God. "The" refers to God as the unique Lord who is our God.
1) The United States of America
1) The President of the USA
1) The earth
1) The moon

2) The cow in the field (this is not talking about a cow in the barn, but one that you could find in the field--thus a particular cow)
2) The car at the stoplight (same here. There might be more than one car at a stoplight, but if there were, you would need more clarification, like "the blue car at the stoplight")
2) I want to buy a car. The car must have leather seats for me to buy it.
2) The car must have leather seats for me to buy it. (Note that even without the first sentence, "the car" implicitly refers to something that is already known about, not something that has yet to be mentioned or discussed.)
2) I have to go to the hospital. (Note that the British often won't use "the" in this case, because it suggests that there is only a single hospital. But we see "the hospital" as a reference to a concept, not a building. Thus it doesn't matter which "hospital", we are just going to a place that fits the description of "hospital" and has "hospital" in the name. But that concept is already well known to us and our listeners when we say it.

What about this: "The cow"?

I think you would say you don't have enough information for "the cow" to make sense. That's because there's no clarifying information, and we know there are more than 1 cows in the world. "Cow" might be a concept, but not one that indicates there's a single representative of "cow" that we would all recognize. It needs either an antecedent to have "the" in front of it, or a clarification in the sentence itself.

That's what the word in Gen 1:9 is. it is "the heaven".

[Gen 1:9 KJV] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.

Since there is no more clarification in the sentence, we would normally look to the previous sentences for context. It would be strange to look several sentences later for the first hint of context for a definite article. What do we find when we look at the previous verse? A description ("firmament") and name ("heaven") that gives the antecedent--exactly what we would expect.

This is the argument from proximity, but it isn't a vacuous argument--it's an argument from language structure and human perception, both of which are more solid than just taking ruler and finding the nearest reference, although that would also give the same conclusion.
 

Derf

Well-known member
By the way, here is an image I made ages ago that describes what we believe. I've been meaning to improve it:

attachment.php


One day...

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Thanks! that is helpful. But it makes TWO gathering of waters, not just one.

I can't guarantee such quick results for my visual.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
It would be strange to look several sentences later for the first hint of context for a definite article.

Unless the "the" was part of a phrase whose meaning was commonly known without context.

If you're "in the know," we don't care if "know" has been put in context, and it shouldn't be confusing if the word "know" was also in the preceding sentence.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
 

JudgeRightly

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Thanks! that is helpful. But it makes TWO gathering of waters, not just one.

I can't guarantee such quick results for my visual.
Keep in mind that that's only a 2D representation, and the "gathering of the waters" didn't happen until after he put the firmament in the midst of the waters.
[MENTION=4167]Stripe[/MENTION] it's amazing how similar that is to something Bryan Nickel sent me in a conversation I was a part of recently on a related matter. I've asked him if I can share it, and I'm waiting for a response.
 

JudgeRightly

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By the way, here is an image I made ages ago that describes what we believe. I've been meaning to improve it:

attachment.php


One day...

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Thanks! that is helpful. But it makes TWO gathering of waters, not just one.

I can't guarantee such quick results for my visual.
Never mind about the TWO waters. I understand what you're getting at.
Keep in mind that that's only a 2D representation, and the "gathering of the waters" didn't happen until after he put the firmament in the midst of the waters.
[MENTION=4167]Stripe[/MENTION] it's amazing how similar that is to something Bryan Nickel sent me in a conversation I was a part of recently on a related matter. I've asked him if I can share it, and I'm waiting for a response.
Just got permission from Bryan, so I'll post my initial question along with his response:

Me:

Watched your overview video (parts 1-6 combined) on the HPT recently (what an excellent video you made), and was wondering if you have a model for what the earth would have looked like prior to the flood, as far as Pangea is concerned...I'm having a hard time imagining where it would be and it's orientation on the pre-flood earth.



Bryan (to me, Doug McBurney, and Bob Enyart, who I CC'd in my initial email):

All,

Good questions. Not all that easy to answer with certainty as far as what pre-flood earth would look like. But I'll explain why I don't show where Pangea was and why I show the graphics as I imagine in the videos. I have been working on something too that I'll show some screen shots of below. Someday it and your questions may result in a follow on video.

Pangea basically means "all land" is the idea that all continents were once connected and concentrated on one side of the planet as one land mass...usually shown with the rest of the globe as an ocean. In this Pangea scenario the continents are assumed to be siting directly on the dry mantle rock. No water under them. No "great deep" as HPT shows. Continents from Pangea are then shown to be carried to their current positions by the circulation of the mantle as proposed by evolutionary Plate Tectonics. HPT is quite different from the Pangea concept. So I don't refer to anything as "Pangea" because it has become so tied to the faulty concepts of Plate Tectonics and AIG/ICR's Catastrophic Plate Tectonics. CPT calls it "Rodinia" (Russian for "motherland") for some reason. I guess one sounds more credentialed if you give it a mysterious sounding name. Walt shows that the Pangea arrangement has a lot of problems...Africa is too small, Central America doesn't exist, N. and S. America are inexplicably rotated ad-hoc into Africa and Europe, etc. You've watched my videos, so I'm sure you know HPT proposes an entirely different scenario where the entire globe (not just one side) is covered by a shell of granite that portions of...would become our continents of today. I will not re-describe this as the videos show much better...and again assuming you already know. If I've assumed wrong...let me know if you don't understand. In any case, that's why I don't really bother to show where Pangea/Rodinia was ...because I dont' think it (as arranged and presented) ever existed.

Now for what I imagine pre-flood earth to have looked like if HPT is remotely correct. I show this in the video:

5aaa670168b1025a2a154968ef08cdb4.jpg


The idea is that if there was only half as much water above the granite (earth/raqia) shell and that shell had warped down in many places when pillars made contact with the mantle, then there would be much more pre-flood surface land and many small seas in the depressed areas.....no dominating, wide oceans. And it is important to clarify that these pre-flood surface seas all rode ON TOP of the granite continental shell. Not adjacent to it as Pangea/Rodinia shows.

So day 1 would look something like this...

bfea1a4564eb79dce151b2e71d01fa38.jpg


Then day 2, the pillars form, seas run into depressions, and dry land rises up out of the waters. Of course the scale is all exaggerated so we can see.

55250ac1483a9aca4b65e9f6bea21f5c.jpg


How many seas? I don't know. I seem to have imagined 20-30 in the video graphic but that is just a notional guess. Maybe we should give them all latin/Greek names and then.... Ha! Depending on how the granite flexed down there could have been less, or 2x-3x more seas than I show.

I've begun to work on a graphic to show the orientation of continents pre-flood along with the pre-flood north pole orientation but it is very much a work in progress.

We are used to looking at earth in the following orientation w/ the north pole (red) up and equator (red line):

0d05d5b73976f9f50690a5dcf06392f3.jpg


However, pre-flood it would have been oriented more like this along the blue equator line:

aeb93643679b2abf74919de3e9e1a554.jpg


As you can see I've begun to show the rough path of the initial rupture of the granite shell (transparent tan) and initial erosion.

I've yet to figure out how to get an image to show how current continent shapes would have been closer together so you'll have to use your imagination to

see that N and S. America would have been a few hundred miles further east and Africa/Europe would have been a few hundred miles further West. Both staying inside the transparent tan pre-flood plate boundaries.


Anyway, hope this helps and did not confuse.


Bryan

 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Just got permission from Bryan, so I'll post my initial question along with his response:
This is awesome. Thanks.

Bryan said:
I don't refer to anything as "Pangea" because it has become so tied to the faulty concepts of Plate Tectonics and AIG/ICR's Catastrophic Plate Tectonics.

This is a vastly underused and underappreciated tactic. Establishment ideas use language that assume the truth of those assertions. Adopting that language just leads to confusion and promotion of the "status quo."

It is much better to be precise and exclusive with terms that refer to your own ideas. :up:
 

Derf

Well-known member
Just got permission from Bryan, so I'll post my initial question along with his response:

Me:

Watched your overview video (parts 1-6 combined) on the HPT recently (what an excellent video you made), and was wondering if you have a model for what the earth would have looked like prior to the flood, as far as Pangea is concerned...I'm having a hard time imagining where it would be and it's orientation on the pre-flood earth.



Bryan (to me, Doug McBurney, and Bob Enyart, who I CC'd in my initial email):

All,

Good questions. Not all that easy to answer with certainty as far as what pre-flood earth would look like. But I'll explain why I don't show where Pangea was and why I show the graphics as I imagine in the videos. I have been working on something too that I'll show some screen shots of below. Someday it and your questions may result in a follow on video.

Pangea basically means "all land" is the idea that all continents were once connected and concentrated on one side of the planet as one land mass...usually shown with the rest of the globe as an ocean. In this Pangea scenario the continents are assumed to be siting directly on the dry mantle rock. No water under them. No "great deep" as HPT shows. Continents from Pangea are then shown to be carried to their current positions by the circulation of the mantle as proposed by evolutionary Plate Tectonics. HPT is quite different from the Pangea concept. So I don't refer to anything as "Pangea" because it has become so tied to the faulty concepts of Plate Tectonics and AIG/ICR's Catastrophic Plate Tectonics. CPT calls it "Rodinia" (Russian for "motherland") for some reason. I guess one sounds more credentialed if you give it a mysterious sounding name. Walt shows that the Pangea arrangement has a lot of problems...Africa is too small, Central America doesn't exist, N. and S. America are inexplicably rotated ad-hoc into Africa and Europe, etc. You've watched my videos, so I'm sure you know HPT proposes an entirely different scenario where the entire globe (not just one side) is covered by a shell of granite that portions of...would become our continents of today. I will not re-describe this as the videos show much better...and again assuming you already know. If I've assumed wrong...let me know if you don't understand. In any case, that's why I don't really bother to show where Pangea/Rodinia was ...because I dont' think it (as arranged and presented) ever existed.

Now for what I imagine pre-flood earth to have looked like if HPT is remotely correct. I show this in the video:

5aaa670168b1025a2a154968ef08cdb4.jpg


The idea is that if there was only half as much water above the granite (earth/raqia) shell and that shell had warped down in many places when pillars made contact with the mantle, then there would be much more pre-flood surface land and many small seas in the depressed areas.....no dominating, wide oceans. And it is important to clarify that these pre-flood surface seas all rode ON TOP of the granite continental shell. Not adjacent to it as Pangea/Rodinia shows.

So day 1 would look something like this...

bfea1a4564eb79dce151b2e71d01fa38.jpg


Then day 2, the pillars form, seas run into depressions, and dry land rises up out of the waters. Of course the scale is all exaggerated so we can see.

55250ac1483a9aca4b65e9f6bea21f5c.jpg


How many seas? I don't know. I seem to have imagined 20-30 in the video graphic but that is just a notional guess. Maybe we should give them all latin/Greek names and then.... Ha! Depending on how the granite flexed down there could have been less, or 2x-3x more seas than I show.

I've begun to work on a graphic to show the orientation of continents pre-flood along with the pre-flood north pole orientation but it is very much a work in progress.

We are used to looking at earth in the following orientation w/ the north pole (red) up and equator (red line):

0d05d5b73976f9f50690a5dcf06392f3.jpg


However, pre-flood it would have been oriented more like this along the blue equator line:

aeb93643679b2abf74919de3e9e1a554.jpg


As you can see I've begun to show the rough path of the initial rupture of the granite shell (transparent tan) and initial erosion.

I've yet to figure out how to get an image to show how current continent shapes would have been closer together so you'll have to use your imagination to

see that N and S. America would have been a few hundred miles further east and Africa/Europe would have been a few hundred miles further West. Both staying inside the transparent tan pre-flood plate boundaries.


Anyway, hope this helps and did not confuse.


Bryan


Great diagrams! I appreciate the work that went into them.

If that's the picture of the gathering of the waters into one place, I guess I have to walk back my walking back of the comment about multiple gathering places. If I'm reading the scriptures correctly, it says the waters under the heavens (which you guys are saying is above the crust/firmament) were gathered into one place so that the dry land appeared. But that's not what the diagram shows--it's showing multiple seas and a single dry land. The scripture doesn't require the dry land to be all connected, although it allows for it. But the majority of the waters must be connected, it seems, unless "one place" really means "several places". I recognize the word "seas" is plural, but that is easily reconciled with normal usage in English ("sail the seven seas" is talking about connected oceans), and I imagine it might be so for Hebrew.

This is not a big critique, but should be considered in model drawing.
 
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