Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

[George Affleck]

You just avoided what I said.

George, I have no delusion regarding changing your view about a literal 24 hour creation day. I merely point out how reasonable it is to view the days as much longer than 24 hours. I have done that.
I leave you to your view.

No...you don't merely point out anything. You only make bald faced statements about how unreasonable you think it is.
You cannot give biblical proof because there is none. All the evidence is against you.

You are not interested in listening to God when He records very plainly what He has done.
You know better than God. You don't believe the Bible at all. Your view of God's Word is the same as Satan's was in the garden. God has surely not said...

You are beguiled by the father of lies and now you are trying to involve as many others in your sin as possible.

 

[Stripe]

And of course you see that my view has no trouble with this, since under 10,000 years ago, and fully grown universe was set in motion, including star light that appears to have been traveling for billions of years, but was as new that first week as everything else was.

There are a couple of things that make it unlikely this is the final answer.

You're probably onto something with me wanting a 'metaphor,' but there's not a well-defined line between wanting a metaphor, and the truth.

Couldn't agree more. There's nothing wrong with seeking to understand, regardless of what form understanding takes.

However, for the starlight challenge, science is the best tool.

Whatever science thinks it knows, I forbid myself from accepting anything that contravenes God's Word.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

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[Stripe]

Sorry it took awhile to get back to this. Are you referring to these verses:
[Gen 1:6 KJV] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[Gen 1:7 KJV] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.

That's the first one..

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[JudgeRightly]

You or [MENTION=4167]Stripe[/MENTION] are going to have to help me out. That's the only one I see.

First firmament, called "Heaven."

Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. - Genesis 1:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:6-8&version=NKJV

Second firmament, "firmament of the heavens", aka the sky.

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” - Genesis 1:14-15,17,20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:14-15,17,20&version=NKJV

 

[Stripe]

You or [MENTION=4167]Stripe[/MENTION] are going to have to help me out. That's the only one I see.

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
Genesis 1:14 NKJV​

This is the second one.

There is a firmament of the heavens and a firmament named Heaven.

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[Derf]

First firmament, called "Heaven."

Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. - Genesis 1:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:6-8&version=NKJV

Second firmament, "firmament of the heavens", aka the sky.

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” - Genesis 1:14-15,17,20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:14-15,17,20&version=NKJV

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
Genesis 1:14 NKJV​

This is the second one.

There is a firmament of the heavens and a firmament named Heaven.

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You guys seem to be tracking well with each other, but are you saying the the sky is where the sun and moon and stars are? The birds seem to be flying on the surface/face of the "firmament of the heavens", which makes sense if the sun and moon and stars are in the firmament of the heavens and the sky is the face (or the closest layer) of it. But not if the stars and moon and sun are in the sky where the birds are.

I think you've made a distinction where there isn't one.

 

[Stripe]

You guys seem to be tracking well with each other.

We read the same book.

I think you've made a distinction where there isn't one.

There's a distinction in Genesis 1.

 

[Derf]

We read the same book.



There's a distinction in Genesis 1.

No, there isn't.

 

[Stripe]

No, there isn't.

Sure, there is:

The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
Genesis 1:2, ‬6-‬10, ‬14-‬18, ‬20 NKJV​

Bolded are references to what we say are two firmaments. The distinction is in those bolded phrases, but also among the details linked to each:

The "firmament called Heaven" has the following features:

1. Created within water. The water is "the deep" of verse 2.
2. Has water above it, called "seas," and water below.
3. Is called "Heaven." Singular, capitalized.

The "firmament of the heavens" has the following features:

1. Has heavenly bodies created within it.
2. Has birds flying across its face.
3. It's of the "heavens." Plural, lower-case.

From our point of view, there are many distinctions and those differences are plainly in the text.

The firmament called Heaven is the granite crust of the Earth, which was broken into pieces by the fountains of the great deep (see feature 1).

The firmament of the heavens is outer space.

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[Derf]

Sure, there is:

The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
Genesis 1:2, ‬6-‬10, ‬14-‬18, ‬20 NKJV​

Bolded are references to what we say are two firmaments. The distinction is in those bolded phrases, but also among the details linked to each:

The "firmament called Heaven" has the following features:

1. Created within water. The water is "the deep" of verse 2.
2. Has water above it, called "seas," and water below.
3. Is called "Heaven." Singular, capitalized.

The "firmament of the heavens" has the following features:

1. Has heavenly bodies created within it.
2. Has birds flying across its face.
3. It's of the "heavens." Plural, lower-case.

From our point of view, there are many distinctions and those differences are plainly in the text.

The firmament called Heaven is the granite crust of the Earth, which was broken into pieces by the fountains of the great deep (see feature 1).

The firmament of the heavens is outer space.

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Can you point to any other scripture that talks about the crust as "Heaven"? When Jesus looked up to "heaven" to pray, was He standing under ground?

As far as I understand there weren't any capital letters in ancient Hebrew. They are added here in certain conditions, one of which is when a name is given. In English, names are capitalized. But perhaps you can find another instance of a capitalized "Heaven", and we can look at it together.

As far as I understand, the word used for "Heaven", "heaven", and "heavens" in Hebrew is all the same word. The distinctions you have made are translations.

Reading the text, it is quite convoluted to say the dry land of the earth is the heavens. Gen 1:1 distinguishes quite clearly between the heavens and the earth. If one of the heavens is really earth, then Gen 1:1 doesn't make sense.

I think this is an example of someone trying real hard to find some different way to look at it.

See if these make sense to you, if "heaven" refers to the crust:
[Gen 7:11 KJV] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
[Gen 7:19 KJV] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered.
[Gen 8:2 KJV] The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

The deep and heaven are contrasted in these verses. "deep" refers to something that is below/under, while "heaven" refers to something that is above/over.

 

[Stripe]

Can you point to any other scripture that talks about the crust as "Heaven"?

No.

There isn't one scripture that says such. That description is our conclusion.

When Jesus looked up to "heaven" to pray, was He standing under ground?

No. There is more than one heaven as well.

Also, the firmament called Heaven — if it is indeed the Earth's granite crust — has been compromised and is no longer called Heaven.

As far as I understand there weren't any capital letters in ancient Hebrew. They are added here in certain conditions, one of which is when a name is given. In English, names are capitalized. But perhaps you can find another instance of a capitalized "Heaven", and we can look at it together.

I agree.

I think there are reasons for capitalization or the lack of that I don't know about.

What is for sure is that there are multiple places called Heaven. Paul described the "third heaven." Perhaps that phrase should be capitalized (II Corinthians doesn't do so).

As far as I understand, the word used for "Heaven", "heaven", and "heavens" in Hebrew is all the same word. The distinctions you have made are translations.

I agree.

To be fair, the distinctions were not made by me and the ideas I presented do not rely on the capitalization. There are two differently described firmaments.

Reading the text, it is quite convoluted to say the dry land of the earth is the heavens. Gen 1:1 distinguishes quite clearly between the heavens and the earth. If one of the heavens is really earth, then Gen 1:1 doesn't make sense.

It does if God named it Heaven. It makes sense; that was where He planned to spend eternity with man. And He's going to make a new one to achieve that goal.

I think this is an example of someone trying real hard to find some different way to look at it.

Perhaps.

However, you haven't demonstrated why what I have said cannot be true.

See if these make sense to you, if "heaven" refers to the crust:

There are multiple heavens.

The deep and heaven are contrasted in these verses. "deep" refers to something that is below/under, while "heaven" refers to something that is above/over.

Yup. That's heaven as in outer space.


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[JudgeRightly]

Can you point to any other scripture that talks about the crust as "Heaven"?

I can't recall any offhand... I'll try to get back to you on that.

When Jesus looked up to "heaven" to pray, was He standing under ground?

Earth was Heaven. It stopped being Heaven after the Fall.

As far as I understand there weren't any capital letters in ancient Hebrew.

Correct.

They are added here in certain conditions, one of which is when a name is given. In English, names are capitalized. But perhaps you can find another instance of a capitalized "Heaven", and we can look at it together.

See Stripe's comment on this.

As far as I understand, the word used for "Heaven", "heaven", and "heavens" in Hebrew is all the same word. The distinctions you have made are translations.

Nothing wrong with that, though, is there?

Reading the text, it is quite convoluted to say the dry land of the earth is the heavens.

Except it doesn't say "the heavens." The word is singular, heaven, and is the name of a place.

The other passages that say "of the heavens" use the plural word, heavens, and is a place, but is not the name of a place.

Gen 1:1 distinguishes quite clearly between the heavens and the earth. If one of the heavens is really earth, then Gen 1:1 doesn't make sense.

You're conflating the two words. For Genesis 1:1, the word "heavens" (the place, not the name) is used, referring to space.

For Genesis 1:9, "heavens" is referring to the sky in general, referring to the place, not the name. The "waters under the heavens" are called seas once the dry land has appeared.

The "firmament" (Hebrew "raqia") in verses 7-8 divides the seas from the waters of the great deep. This firmament is called Heaven, the name of a place.

I think this is an example of someone trying real hard to find some different way to look at it.

Not at all. It's just reading it logically.

Would a visualization help?

https://youtu.be/Hqvroege-Hk

If you want to skip to the part of this video relevant to the topic of this thread, skip to 18m50s, though I highly recommend watching his entire series, the Hydroplate Theory Overview (parts 1-6).

See if these make sense to you, if "heaven"

You mean "Heaven"... I think....

refers to the crust:
[Gen 7:11 KJV] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

"the great deep" = waters below the firmament

"fountains of the great deep" = jets of water shooting up from below the crust of the earth traveling at hypersonic speeds (minimum mach 151 (iirc))

"windows of heaven" = rain, obviously, but mostly from the fountains of water, not from pre-existing water in the atmosphere

[Gen 7:19 KJV] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered.

everything was covered by water, it wasn't a local flood

[Gen 8:2 KJV] The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

not enough water left under the crust to be able to be pushed out by the crust, so the fountains stopped

windows of heaven is still referring to the rain coming from the sky.

The deep and heaven are contrasted in these verses. "deep" refers to something that is below/under, while "heaven" refers to something that is above/over.

Correct, because it's referring to the place, not the name, the heavens.

A better argument for this comes from the usage of "firmament" (again, Hebrew "raqia") See Bryan Nickel's videos (the first one is linked above).

 

[Derf]

I can't recall any offhand... I'll try to get back to you on that.



Earth was Heaven. It stopped being Heaven after the Fall.

You've made your search window quite small. Should be easy to find any references to "Heaven" between creation and fall.

Correct.

You mean "Heaven"... I think....

These two comments from you seem contradictory. As I only see the word "Heaven" once, and only when it is referred to as a naming event, the only decent interpretation I can see is that "Heaven" (which is capitalized because it is a name) is referring to the same thing as "heaven". Just as "Earth" is capitalized in Gen 1:10, but never elsewhere.

Not at all. It's just reading it logically.

By your logic, you should also be looking for a second earth of some sort. One named and talked about only once in the whole Bible, and the other commonly used. What is that Earth in your theory?

Except it doesn't say "the heavens." The word is singular, heaven, and is the name of a place.

The other passages that say "of the heavens" use the plural word, heavens, and is a place, but is not the name of a place.



You're conflating the two words. For Genesis 1:1, the word "heavens" (the place, not the name) is used, referring to space.

For Genesis 1:9, "heavens" is referring to the sky in general, referring to the place, not the name. The "waters under the heavens" are called seas once the dry land has appeared.

Shall we look at the words? I'm no Hebrew scholar, so I'm just looking at the symbols to see if I see differences.

Here's the word for "the heaven/heavens" in Gen 1:1: השמים (it's translated both ways in different translations)
Here's the word for "Heaven" in Gen 1:8: שמים
Here's the word for "the heaven" in Gen 1:14: השמים
Here's the word for "the heavens" in Gen 2:1: השמים
Here's another example of "heaven" from Gen 14:19: שמים

You can see
1. That there's no difference between "Heaven" and "heaven".
2. That there's no difference between "heaven" and "heavens".
3. There is a difference between "heaven" and "the heaven". That one letter "ה" is defined as a definite article, so it makes sense that it occurs when the translators include "the".

What can we make of that?
1. We can't distinguish between a plural and a singular in "heaven/heavens"
2. We can't distinguish between a proper noun and a common noun for "heaven"

Therefore we should not be making doctrine based on those distinctions.

Would a visualization help?

https://youtu.be/Hqvroege-Hk

If you want to skip to the part of this video relevant to the topic of this thread, skip to 18m50s, though I highly recommend watching his entire series, the Hydroplate Theory Overview (parts 1-6).

Thanks for both the link and the shortcut to the pertinent part. That was interesting. I don't have a problem with Brown's hydroplate theory in general. I do have a problem with his trying to force his theory onto the meaning of "heaven" in Gen 1. The text just doesn't support it. Doesn't mean he's wrong, just he doesn't have any evidence that "Heaven" refers to the ground, and lacking evidence of ANY kind, the normal thing to do is to read "Heaven" as referring to the same thing as "heaven".

"the great deep" = waters below the firmament

"fountains of the great deep" = jets of water shooting up from below the crust of the earth traveling at hypersonic speeds (minimum mach 151 (iirc))

"windows of heaven" = rain, obviously, but mostly from the fountains of water, not from pre-existing water in the atmosphere

I agree with most of this, but this is where the words start getting confused. If there were a place to use "Heaven" to mean some place between waters that is not the sky, this is the place to do it. But you admit it's not there, so no more need be said.

(However, if "heaven" in "windows of heaven" can mean the opening in the surface of the heavens, then this could suggest that some of the rain came from outer space.)

not enough water left under the crust to be able to be pushed out by the crust, so the fountains stopped

windows of heaven is still referring to the rain coming from the sky.

This idea that the fountains stopped, but the rain continued, suggests a different source for the rain. The source could just be the moisture that was introduced from the fountains continued to swirl around in the sky and dropped like rain for awhile. Or it could mean that there was another source above the sky.

Correct, because it's referring to the place, not the name, the heavens.

which you haven't sufficiently demonstrated as distinguishable.

 

[Derf]

No.

There isn't one scripture that says such. That description is our conclusion.

No. There is more than one heaven as well.

Also, the firmament called Heaven — if it is indeed the Earth's granite crust — has been compromised and is no longer called Heaven.



I agree.

I think there are reasons for capitalization or the lack of that I don't know about.

What is for sure is that there are multiple places called Heaven. Paul described the "third heaven." Perhaps that phrase should be capitalized (II Corinthians doesn't do so).

I agree.

To be fair, the distinctions were not made by me and the ideas I presented do not rely on the capitalization. There are two differently described firmaments.

It does if God named it Heaven. It makes sense; that was where He planned to spend eternity with man. And He's going to make a new one to achieve that goal.

Perhaps.

However, you haven't demonstrated why what I have said cannot be true.

There are multiple heavens.


Yup. That's heaven as in outer space.


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Thanks for the straightforward answers!

Regarding this:

However, you haven't demonstrated why what I have said cannot be true.

There's no point in demonstrating that it cannot be true, because it is never used anywhere else in the bible. Of what purpose is it to introduce something, name that thing, and then never use the name again for that thing--rather, use that name only for other things.

 

[Stripe]

There's no point in demonstrating that it cannot be true, because it is never used anywhere else in the bible. Of what purpose is it to introduce something, name that thing, and then never use the name again for that thing--rather, use that name only for other things.

Because it breaks and is never relevant to the conversation again? :idunno:

I think the key is that the multiple firmaments, multiple heavens approach is the only one that gives Genesis 1 a shot at being sensible.

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[Derf]

Because it breaks and is never relevant to the conversation again? :idunno:

I think the key is that the multiple firmaments, multiple heavens approach is the only one that gives Genesis 1 a shot at being sensible.

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I've heard some that might work. Like having the waters beyond the firmament pulled way up beyond what we can currently see with telescopes (or maybe beyond the light travel boundary). This material, made of water, might be the source for the "dark energy" that some say is accelerating the expansion of the universe.

I think multiple heavens can still be used in such a scenario. 1st heaven would be the sky, 2nd outer space, 3rd beyond the waters above the firmament.

 

[Stripe]

I've heard some that might work. Like having the waters beyond the firmament pulled way up beyond what we can currently see with telescopes (or maybe beyond the light travel boundary). This material, made of water, might be the source for the "dark energy" that some say is accelerating the expansion of the universe.

I think multiple heavens can still be used in such a scenario. 1st heaven would be the sky, 2nd outer space, 3rd beyond the waters above the firmament.

The water was on the Earth. It's in the text.

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[way 2 go]

There's no point in demonstrating that it cannot be true, because it is never used anywhere else in the bible. Of what purpose is it to introduce something, name that thing, and then never use the name again for that thing--rather, use that name only for other things.

Because it breaks and is never relevant to the conversation again? :idunno:

why would something have to be mentioned more than once?

Abraham's side is only mentioned once and is no longer relevant .

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,

 

[Stripe]

why would something have to be mentioned more than once? Abraham's side is only mentioned once and is no longer relevant,

Yeah, I didn't get why that was a challenge. :idunno:

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[JudgeRightly]

I've heard some that might work. Like having the waters beyond the firmament pulled way up beyond what we can currently see with telescopes (or maybe beyond the light travel boundary). This material, made of water, might be the source for the "dark energy" that some say is accelerating the expansion of the universe.

I think multiple heavens can still be used in such a scenario. 1st heaven would be the sky, 2nd outer space, 3rd beyond the waters above the firmament.

The water being on earth, below the firmament called heaven, with a spherical shell super-continent with seas instead of oceans, is the only (as far as I'm aware) plausible scenario that doesn't rely on any miracles other than creation. Adding miracles into Genesis where there are none to make one's theory fit is a bad idea. Letting scripture speak for itself allows for Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.