Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

[Stuu]

:think: Some scientist said some deep water animals can live near vents without 'oxygen.' I wonder if he knows what he just said. :think:

The question is, do you know what he just said?

Stuart

 

[Stuu]

Yes. Logic is simply figuring out what is true AND it was true before we ever got here. 2+2 equaled four before we ever got here.

You seem to think logic and mathematics are the same thing. Mathematics is a language that is based on the geometry of the universe, and is used to describe the universe, although not perfectly. How would a language develop without speakers of it?

Shortsighted. There is no 'reason' for us to have 'evolved.' There is NO mechanism for it. None, if you were correct and there is no god. AT LEAST some of the previous atheists understood this and speculated over alien plantings etc. They KNEW nothing + nothing always equals nothing.

I can't help your ignorance. I recommend at least learning something about the claims of the thing you oppose.

Listen to Billy Preston, he knows what he is talking about. It is logic and the principle was here before you and I. Your wise great grandparents knew that.

I think the topic of Billy's brilliant lecture wasn't Big Bang cosmology!

Your version perhaps. Not mine. Sorry about that. Try to find out why your and mine are completely different. Mine is Biblical, btw.

Do you follow the letter of the bible, or do you cherry-pick your beliefs?

Yep, Christians do die today for their beliefs.

All for 'principles' that are immoral. But that's not what I said. I'm thinking of those who aren't christians who die because of christian beliefs.

Because they are mean? Because they reject hatred and hateful people can't abide it more likely. As to violence? I don't believe it. We didn't have mass shootings. We didn't have kids dying while cowards hide behind bullets shooting up their unprotected classmates like fish in a barrel. It DIDN'T exist. I don't care about Pinker's nonsense statistics. They just do not add up. It is pure hype and spin. Statistics CAN lie if used by the wrong people.

See how you reject an 'expert' and favour the idea that you could have power from the knowledge you generate for yourself? That's how people die. The experts are those who know what they are talking about, and in the case of guns in schools the expertise lies with people who have achieved reductions in gun crime in their own jurisdictions. But people insist they know better, actually because knowledge is power and they want to have the power of the expert without earning the real knowledge itself. In my country we have quite widespread gun ownership, but very strict controls with background-check licensing and compulsory locked storage for firearms. In our history as a nation, there has only been one school shooting, in 1923. Kids aren't shot dead in our schools. We listen to our experts.

Incorrect. You weren't there. Double blinds cause 'doubt' and James says doubt kills prayer. You CAN'T do a decent double-blind without being a well-read Christian. For you? No good because you aren't a Christian but it at least protects us from absurd tests for God which He tells us not to do. No strong well-read Christian is going to submit to a double-blind. Why? Wrong reason. We don't double-blind a mother's love for her child without becoming clinical and sanitizing it. It just isn't possible (I know the arguments 'for' and don't buy them, clearly Dawkins, Hitchens, and Hawking with their failed marriages and troubled children aren't capable).

Another celebration of ignorance.

Good! It means no deceptions!

But the finery doesn't exist. It's a delusion.

You are playing purposefully obtuse and stupid. Do you have a picture of wind for me to look at? Are you (ineptly) going to tell me there is no such thing as wind?

There is a reason why wind cannot be photographed. Air does not reflect light in the visible part of the spectrum. Is that the reason why your god cannot be photographed?

You atheists seem to spout this absurdity ad nauseum. It is just dumb, Stuart. Dumb. Leave it on the floor where it belongs and don't pick it up again. YOU know how unworthy it is. It isn't intelligent, honest, or taking any kind of high-ground for reasonable, intelligent, or gracious conversation. It is why you folks get banned at times. We all see this as "insincere." If I need to explain further or this inconceivably finds you unaware or clueless as if you think this is an intelligent request, let me know. I have a hard time believing this catches you confused or unaware, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt if it does catch you in that awkward position.

That's a long paragraph for someone with no answer to my question.

See, again, this is why I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you can show me a picture of the wind (not what it does) I'll try by turn to give you a picture of God. If you agree we can neither have a picture 'air' (moving or otherwise) nor God, but that they both can exist. Great. IOW, you would at that point acquiesce that even in this material plane (our physical observance and existence) some things that exist actually are invisible and it isn't reasonable to request a portrait of them (wind/air being a good example).

So you are saying that the reason your god cannot be photographed is because it is invisible. You will anticipate that I have questions for you about the times that the bible says humans saw this god, and how it is invisible to photography today even though it was visible to humans in the past. I take it you will know enough about your god to be able to answer them. If you can't then maybe we might need to revise your reason for a photograph not being a reasonable request.

Simply saying "if I can't see it, it doesn't exist" isn't a reasonable logic.

I agree. But I don't think I ever claimed that. Do those quotation marks indicate a quote from me? If so, could you please cite it so I can correct it.

Stuu: There is no good reason to believe your god exists.

Incorrect. There is EVERY good reason to suspect. ONLY those opposed to His personality would 'doubt' it. It is frankly a cop-out.

So your answer is not to provide a good reason...

... I did see several instant healings in my lifetime. I have seen incredible, miraculous, and incredibly specific answers to prayer, all unshared with anybody else, all impossible for explanation other than somebody is hearing my prayer and answering incredibly specifically and impossibly. As I've often said, either God exists or I'm magic. You SHOULD find it easier to believe God exists than to believe I'm some kind of Harry Potter. It leaves little squirming room for you, honestly. I find your objection otherwise " I do not see you having a good reason for believing the way you do..." just isn't reasonable and it doesn't fit the data at all. You at the VERY least should be agnostic, not against such a notion. SOMETHING has clearly happened that doesn't leave room for such a statement. It isn't a tenable response. Rather "I don't or can't believe you" could be appropriate etc. but NOT " I do not see you having a good reason for believing the way you do..."

Those look like poor reasons to me.

I don't believe you are being objective. This isn't a 'thing' that you can scientifically objectify. To me it is akin to Hawking saying that "philosophy is dead." He couldn't have been more wrong with just a statement. You and I exercise philosophy in every dialogue we carry out. If even I gave him the caveat "formal philosophy education is dead" he'd still be wrong. If we forget our past we are sure to repeat the problematics of that past. Ignoring nitrogen levels while scuba diving can kill you. Despite your or my ignorance of the fact. If you were to believe 'nitrogen levels' are "so obviously fiction" I'd do my best to convince you that you are quite mistaken, not because I'm an egotist, but because I'm a humanitarian. It is the right thing to do. While you are here on TOL, I must try, even if my efforts are futile in the attempt. Anything less would be unconscionable for me personally. I do care. -Lon

For someone who is not an egotist, you do a blindingly good impression.

Stuart

 

[Stripe]

Plate tectonics, one of the most well evidenced and FACTUAL current day geology.

:darwinsm:

The one where nobody can agree on a mechanism that powers the movement of continents?

What do you mean by 'the primacy of logic'?

"primacy: the fact of being pre-eminent or most important."

In context, we disagree over which came first: logic or people. I think my meaning was clear.

It looks to me like you don't really have a logical argument.

:darwinsm:

All they have is mockery.

Nope. Reason and evidence. We can't even get you to admit that logic is a necessary component of reality.

What hope is there of you ever bringing anything but nonsense or mockery?

Er....um.....so apparently you think there was one point in time (post-Darwin even) where someone "named the geologic column", rather than it just being the cumulative work of geologists identifying and naming various strata over the years.

We know why you want to dodge.

We were talking about the geological column. YECs reject it. If you want to talk about it sensibly, you need to recognize its status within our worldview.

Like I said, this is why no one should ever get their info on science from creationists.

Bigot.

It's a religious belief.

:yawn:

How much energy did that require?

:troll:

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[Jose Fly]

I wonder if you know what 'water' is made of... :think: I hate to say my estimation of your academic prowess falls every time I talk to you, but anaerobes ARE dependent upon oxygen. I wonder if you know the difference between elements and compounds :think: You just aren't this bright, Jose. I'm smarter than you. I just am. Sorry about that Sparky.

Oh my. So when you said "oxygen"', you really meant "water"? Thanks for illustrating my point about you so well Lon. :thumb:

 

[Jose Fly]

The one where nobody can agree on a mechanism that powers the movement of continents?

Any disagreements between Christian creationists you can think of? Like say, the age of things, the flood and its mechanisms, or even the shape of the earth? :think:

 

[Stuu]

"primacy: the fact of being pre-eminent or most important."

In context, we disagree over which came first: logic or people. I think my meaning was clear.

We can't even get you to admit that logic is a necessary component of reality.

You're making the claim, so you give the reasoning, or the evidence for it. In what way did logic exist before humans (or any other animal capable of logical processing)?

Stuart

 

[iouae]

:darwinsm:

The one where nobody can agree on a mechanism that powers the movement of continents?

Continents are moving apart from mid oceanic ridges - do you dispute this fact?

There are symmetrical reversals of magnetism either side of mid-oceanic ridges - do you dispute this fact?

Magma is welling up at the mid oceanic ridges - do you dispute this fact?

So mid-oceanic ridges are caused by underneath the crust magma upwellings due to below surface convection currents of moving magma. The mechanism moving continents is upwellings of sub-surface magma. If you have not heard of the mechanism moving continents apart - does not change the FACT.

 

[iouae]

Kind of a silly question don't you think? It's like asking if God made Dalmatian dogs?

No, yours is the silly question.

Mine I will repeat - do you believe Jesus made carnivores?

You seem to think that an animal killing and eating another is an evil, fallen state. If its evil, and Jesus made the animal that way, does that reflect badly on Jesus, or on you?

 

[Lon]

Oh my. So when you said "oxygen"', you really meant "water"? Thanks for illustrating my point about you so well Lon. :thumb:

"Oh my....when you said ' :rotfl: '" you really meant you jumped the gun with a man more intelligent than you are! :noway:

:up:

 

[Lon]

The question is, do you know what he just said?

Stuart

Yes. If you WANT to be childish, which amounts to snarky, inane, and dumb... go for it. I'll only encourage whatever discredits you. Go ahead and lower yourself over what is already academically lost. Neither of you CAN save this. It is just this inept. Sorry. Have fun.

You seem to think logic and mathematics are the same thing. Mathematics is a language that is based on the geometry of the universe, and is used to describe the universe, although not perfectly. How would a language develop without speakers of it?

They are. Sorry about that.

I can't help your ignorance. I recommend at least learning something about the claims of the thing you oppose.

Ooops, nope. 2 + 2 = 4 --> Math. Water is made of oxygen molecules. One (math) for every two (math) H's. Sorry, you lose again. Fun no? I simply hate snarky. I'm sorry, it is more than apparent where diving to the lowest common denominator for snarky points: A high IQ it doesn't at all point to. Logic likewise: If you see one pink elephant then identity (one, math) means 'one pink elephant. Logic is a mathematical proposition with words. Have inane fun with that. I'm done. I'm just not going to bow down to simpletons. You both might be intelligent, but are displaying 'none of that' at the moment. It is really beneath me. It is expected that it'd be beneath you two as well, trying to be 'brilliant' and all. You simply lose playing this childish game. Let me know when you are both beyond the inane and trolling behavior. :wave:

Thanks for illustrating my point about you so well Lon. :thumb:

Incredibly well. YOU look foolish, childish, today. :up:

 

[Jose Fly]

"Oh my....when you said ' :rotfl: '" you really meant you jumped the gun with a man more intelligent than you are! :noway:

:up:

When you're out to dinner, do you ask the waiter for a "glass of oxygen"? And do you expect the waiter to know that you actually want a glass of water? :chuckle:

 

[Lon]

When you're out to dinner, do you ask the waiter for a "glass of oxygen"? And do you expect the waiter to know that you actually want a glass of water? :chuckle:

See? Foolish. If I say H2O, I 'wonder' if the waiter knows what he is bringing me. You? For your foolish posturing, you look like you flunked chemistry. Again, sorry about that. You both are doing it to yourselves with this 'lives without oxygen' nonsense. Further? These generally live off of beings that DO need oxygen. GUESS what that means. Guess. Try.

On top of it all? You dug yourself into this hole TRYING to be brilliant and snarky and TRYING to put me in my proverbial place. :nono: Nice try. It is incredibly childish and unworthy. ANYTHING said along these lines just reminds people how childish and freshman your mind is. I welcome it. Have at it. You are the one looking like this, not me. Keep at it. You are only discrediting yourself further. It CAN'T go anywhere else from there. :wave:

 

[JudgeRightly]

See? Foolish. If I say H2O, I 'wonder' if the waiter knows what he is bringing me. You? For your foolish posturing, you look like you flunked chemistry. Again, sorry about that. You both are doing it to yourselves with this 'lives without oxygen' nonsense. Further? These generally live off of beings that DO need oxygen. GUESS what that means. Guess. Try.

On top of it all? You dug yourself into this hole TRYING to be brilliant and snarky and TRYING to put me in my proverbial place. :nono: Nice try. It is incredibly childish and unworthy. ANYTHING said along these lines just reminds people how childish and freshman your mind is. I welcome it. Have at it. You are the one looking like this, not me. Keep at it. You are only discrediting yourself further. It CAN'T go anywhere else from there. :wave:

:rotfl:

 

[6days]

do you believe Jesus made carnivores?

Scripture tells us that all 'nepesh'
creatures had plants for food. Your question seems anti-science and anti-scripture.(You need learn about mutations and adaptation)

You seem to think that an animal killing and eating another is an evil, fallen state.

Correct... Scripture compares paradise to where the wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The gap theory is heretical believing in a cruel wasteful God. Gap theorists, seem incapable of explaining why Jesus had to physically die. The gap theory is not only theologically unsound, but is also anti-science.

 

[iouae]

Correct... Scripture compares paradise to where the wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

Yet it was Jesus who made wolf to be carnivorous.

So Jesus made the world fallen?

 

[Stuu]

Yes. If you WANT to be childish, which amounts to snarky, inane, and dumb... go for it. I'll only encourage whatever discredits you. Go ahead and lower yourself over what is already academically lost. Neither of you CAN save this. It is just this inept. Sorry. Have fun.

I'll take the sorry from that. You understand what anaerobic means, I take it.

They are. Sorry about that.

'They are' what?

Ooops, nope. 2 + 2 = 4 --> Math. Water is made of oxygen molecules. One (math) for every two (math) H's. Sorry, you lose again. Fun no? I simply hate snarky. I'm sorry, it is more than apparent where diving to the lowest common denominator for snarky points: A high IQ it doesn't at all point to.

So you understand that water is not 'made of oxygen molecules', hopefully. I think all you needed to say was thanks for the correction, and not to me but to Jose F.

Logic likewise: If you see one pink elephant then identity (one, math) means 'one pink elephant. Logic is a mathematical proposition with words. Have inane fun with that. I'm done. I'm just not going to bow down to simpletons. You both might be intelligent, but are displaying 'none of that' at the moment. It is really beneath me. It is expected that it'd be beneath you two as well, trying to be 'brilliant' and all. You simply lose playing this childish game. Let me know when you are both beyond the inane and trolling behavior.

And christians call atheists arrogant. Wow.

Stuart

 

[iouae]

I hope all you "fallen" folks realise that there is no evidence in the fossil record of the world ever being any different today than it was in the past.

There never was a time when lions, wolves, T. rex was found with grass in its mouth and stomach, other than a little grass that the domestic cat eats to aid digestion of it's otherwise meaty diet. That's a FACT.

So the "fallen" state of the earth today is a Christian myth. It's not even supported by scripture. Yet it is so taken for granted by the likes of 6days.

Jesus made carnivores to be carnivores, and it all was declared as being "very good", from creation.

The ideal of wolves lying down with lambs and asps eating dust is for a future iteration. That state NEVER existed, not even in Eden.

Eden was like my back yard, perfectly safe from harmful critters, the likes of which live outside my garden, in the wild.

 

[Jose Fly]

See? Foolish. If I say H2O, I 'wonder' if the waiter knows what he is bringing me. You? For your foolish posturing, you look like you flunked chemistry. Again, sorry about that. You both are doing it to yourselves with this 'lives without oxygen' nonsense. Further? These generally live off of beings that DO need oxygen. GUESS what that means. Guess. Try.

On top of it all? You dug yourself into this hole TRYING to be brilliant and snarky and TRYING to put me in my proverbial place. :nono: Nice try. It is incredibly childish and unworthy. ANYTHING said along these lines just reminds people how childish and freshman your mind is. I welcome it. Have at it. You are the one looking like this, not me. Keep at it. You are only discrediting yourself further. It CAN'T go anywhere else from there. :wave:

I wonder if you were one of those kids who figured he should be able to breathe underwater, since water has oxygen in it. And then after you tried it, that's when you found yourself put into the "special" school. :think:

 

[JudgeRightly]

I hope all you "fallen" folks realise that there is no evidence in the fossil record of the world ever being any different today than it was in the past.

There never was a time when lions, wolves, T. rex was found with grass in its mouth and stomach, other than a little grass that the domestic cat eats to aid digestion of it's otherwise meaty diet. That's a FACT.

So the "fallen" state of the earth today is a Christian myth. It's not even supported by scripture. Yet it is so taken for granted by the likes of 6days.

Jesus made carnivores to be carnivores, and it all was declared as being "very good", from creation.

The ideal of wolves lying down with lambs and asps eating dust is for a future iteration. That state NEVER existed, not even in Eden.

Eden was like my back yard, perfectly safe from harmful critters, the likes of which live outside my garden, in the wild.

Why would there be evidence of a perfect world in the fossil layers when Creation and the Fall happened about 1656 years prior to Noah's Flood, which would have also destroyed the Garden of Eden?

1600 years is more than enough time after the Fall for all animals who became carnivorous to become so.

 

[Truster]

There are certain comments that go directly into the column marked "insanity" the OP is there.