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Is there any obvious evidence today for the biblical global Flood?

Right Divider

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How am I supposed to put this in another thread?
Start a new thread and put this in it.
So, 3000 year old labs are still supposed to exist?
We unearth ancient artifacts all of the time. No such artifacts have been found.
Do you really expect us to believe that there were nuclear bombs 1000 years before Christ and then no advanced technology 1000 years later... nope. That's ridiculous.
All that remains is the evidence the explosions left.
I highly doubt this supposed "evidence".
I'd recommend that you buy the book as I can't explain an entire book to you in this format.
I'll save my money.
I figured you would be pretty skeptical so it's not a surprise to me.
Of course I'm skeptical. This claim is not reasonable.
 

Gary K

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Start a new thread and put this in it.

We unearth ancient artifacts all of the time. No such artifacts have been found.
Do you really expect us to believe that there were nuclear bombs 1000 years before Christ and then no advanced technology 1000 years later... nope. That's ridiculous.

I highly doubt this supposed "evidence".

I'll save my money.

Of course I'm skeptical. This claim is not reasonable.
Let's look at the Biblical evidence instead of your opinion.

Man came forth from the creators hand perfect in every physical way. He lived about a thousand years and had a mind which he used to it's full capacity, not the 10-15% we humans use today. What could you accomplish learning wise in a life that long in an environment that was almost perfect in which food grew with all the nutrients the body and mind need to flourish. Their memory retention must have been photographic. I'd take those advantages over what I have today any day of the week as I'd be considered to have an IQ that is off the charts today.
 

JudgeRightly

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Let's look at the Biblical evidence instead of your opinion.

Man came forth from the creators hand perfect in every physical way. He lived about a thousand years and had a mind which he used to it's full capacity, not the 10-15% we humans use today. What could you accomplish learning wise in a life that long in an environment that was almost perfect in which food grew with all the nutrients the body and mind need to flourish. Their memory retention must have been photographic. I'd take those advantages over what I have today any day of the week as I'd be considered to have an IQ that is off the charts today.

Start a new thread. Do not derail other threads, please.
 

Right Divider

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I'm sorry JR, but I have to reply to this post.
Let's look at the Biblical evidence instead of your opinion.
This may be the funniest post in the history of TOL.

You go on to give a comment light on "Biblical evidence" and heavy on GK opinion.
Man came forth from the creators hand perfect in every physical way.
I assume that you think that this means that man had all knowledge as well.
He lived about a thousand years and had a mind which he used to it's full capacity, not the 10-15% we humans use today.
That is NOT "Biblical evidence", it is GK opinion.
What could you accomplish learning wise in a life that long in an environment that was almost perfect in which food grew with all the nutrients the body and mind need to flourish.
Again, you were talking about 3000 years ago and NOT at the beginning. Get your facts straight.
Their memory retention must have been photographic.
More GK opinion.
I'd take those advantages over what I have today any day of the week as I'd be considered to have an IQ that is off the charts today.
Again that has nothing to do with the lack of discovery of ANY ancient "high tech" society in the range of 3000 years ago. You would have us believe that this "high tech" society just completely vanished in the 1000 years before Christ. Sorry, not buying it.

Start a new thread and we can continue to demolish your idea.
 

Yorzhik

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He lived about a thousand years and had a mind which he used to it's full capacity, not the 10-15% we humans use today.
I don't get to tell this story too often so I'm kind of excited when I get the chance. My father was a biologist in the late 50s early 60s and he heard the doctor that gave rise to the "common knowledge" that humans only use 10% of their brain. He was able to hear what the doctor actually said. Bluntly, he said, "we use 10% of our brain at a time" and went on further saying that we use our entire brain every few minutes. So my dad reminded me of this whenever the myth was stated through the years.
 

Stripe

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I don't get to tell this story too often so I'm kind of excited when I get the chance. My father was a biologist in the late 50s early 60s and he heard the doctor that gave rise to the "common knowledge" that humans only use 10% of their brain. He was able to hear what the doctor actually said. Bluntly, he said, "we use 10% of our brain at a time" and went on further saying that we use our entire brain every few minutes. So my dad reminded me of this whenever the myth was stated through the years.
For some people, the ratio doesn't quite hold. :D
 
In geologic time if the Flood really did happen, it happened like a blink of an eye ago. So if there's any evidence in the rocks of the Flood, it should still be there, and it should be pretty clear. There's enough water on the earth (more than a billion cubic kms) to cover it all under 2km of water, if the earth's crust was uniformly thick, but it's not, we have deep ocean trenches and tall mountains.

The Bible says the tallest mountains were covered by 15 cubits of water at the Flood's height. A cubit is over a foot in length, so this is over 15 feet over the tallest mountain peaks. That height of water corresponds to the 2km depth aforementioned. Which means the tallest mountains before the Flood were no more than 2km tall, whereas today Mount Everest for example is like 9km tall.

The waters of the Flood wouldn't just stay up at a high level for any longer than gravity would permit, so something changed in order to allow both the level to drop down, but also for mountains like Everest to rise up.

If the surface of the earth was separated from the crust by water, then the Flood could have occurred through the collapse of this structure. That would fairly quickly submerge the entire surface under 2km of water.

So now the question is, what happened so that the total height from the earth's mantle of rock is now between like 7km and 20km (Mariana trench Challenger Deep being like 7kms and Everest's summit being like 20kms from the mantle directly underneath them), which is a range of like 13km of rock. For the Flood's water to cover a 2km mountain means that even if 7km thickness at Mariana trench didn't change, the tallest mountain's summit was no more than 13kms from the mantle.

What causes rock to rise up 7km toward the sky?
Right at the flood the Bible says in Genesis 7:11 that the fountains of the great deep opened up and the the windows of heaven were open.
Isn't it possible that not only did it rain water but water came from the depths of the Earth, the great deep.


What article says at a low point there is 1/2 the amount of water of the oceans in the mantle and on the high point there is two to three times the amount of ocean water in the mantle. So it's a possibility that the water went back to where it come from. The Bible gives no indication other than it's subsided or what the great deep is.
 

Clete

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Right at the flood the Bible says in Genesis 7:11 that the fountains of the great deep opened up and the the windows of heaven were open.
Isn't it possible that not only did it rain water but water came from the depths of the Earth, the great deep.


What article says at a low point there is 1/2 the amount of water of the oceans in the mantle and on the high point there is two to three times the amount of ocean water in the mantle. So it's a possibility that the water went back to where it come from. The Bible gives no indication other than it's subsided or what the great deep is.
Excellent point!

You should read Walt Brown's book on this exact topic.

Hydroplate Theory
 
Excellent point!

You should read Walt Brown's book on this exact topic.

Hydroplate Theory
Thank you - I just read a bit of what's online and I find it interesting. I learned a few years back that scientists are now saying that the Earth was once a water world. Somewhere in the beginning there was no visible land.
Isaiah is giving reference to why some ministers believe that the Earth *became* void and without form, that something drastically happened to it. And God put it back together and later created Adam.
Thank you I may not read the book but I will read what's online, that will make an interesting read.
 

JudgeRightly

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Thank you - I just read a bit of what's online and I find it interesting. I learned a few years back that scientists are now saying that the Earth was once a water world. Somewhere in the beginning there was no visible land.
Isaiah is giving reference to why some ministers believe that the Earth *became* void and without form, that something drastically happened to it. And God put it back together and later created Adam.
Thank you I may not read the book but I will read what's online, that will make an interesting read.

The entire book is available online.

 

Clete

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Thank you - I just read a bit of what's online and I find it interesting. I learned a few years back that scientists are now saying that the Earth was once a water world. Somewhere in the beginning there was no visible land.
Isaiah is giving reference to why some ministers believe that the Earth *became* void and without form, that something drastically happened to it. And God put it back together and later created Adam.
Thank you I may not read the book but I will read what's online, that will make an interesting read.
There was never any such thing as God "putting the Earth back together", for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. (Exodus 20:11)
 

Idolater

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Right at the flood the Bible says in Genesis 7:11 that the fountains of the great deep opened up and the the windows of heaven were open.
Isn't it possible that not only did it rain water but water came from the depths of the Earth, the great deep.
This is what the HPT says, along with HPT-type theories which aren't exactly Mr. Brown's HPT (he invented the HPT and the HPT is his intellectual property).

What article says at a low point there is 1/2 the amount of water of the oceans in the mantle and on the high point there is two to three times the amount of ocean water in the mantle.
If true this is consonant with the HPT and HPT-type theories. It shows that the fountains of the great deep only reduced the underground water by half instead of basically all the way. It comports with HPT and HPT-type theories which believe the fountains are like planetary plumes.

230531073559-enceladus-water-vapor-plume-james-webb.jpg

So it's a possibility that the water went back to where it come from.
No it's not possible unless our understanding of the mechanism which drove the fountains is wrong. The fountains were fountains because they were under pressure and they were releasing that pressure. Once that pressure released, the water could not go back anymore than toothpaste can be put back into the tube.
The Bible gives no indication other than it's subsided or what the great deep is.
Right. The whole general idea is that the World ocean is the residual water from the Flood.
 

Clete

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Estimates of the earth's mass is 5.9725 billion trillion tons.

That's 5,972,500,000 trillion tons.

So that comet would be ~ .000008% of the earth's PRESENT mass.
That is utterly irrelevant to my point!

[Are you starting to see the problem?]

Nope...
You really should be! :cool:

I just reread my post and I can't think of how to make the point any more clearly and so I'm just going to repeat myself (more or less).....

At best, shooting a comet sized piece of the earth into orbit AROUND THE SUN would have been like shooting these objects out of a very inefficient gun. The point is that once the object left this "barrel" of a gap in the crust, it would have had to have already achieved sufficient velocity to not only overcome the friction of moving through Earth's atmosphere on its way to space but also enough to lose a large percentage of its velocity relative to the Sun that it had by virtue of being part of the Earth when it started its journey.

Just to give you an idea of the speeds involved. The fastest projectile that scientist have figured out how to shoot, accelerated a 1 gram projectile to 7.6 m/s (miles per second) or just over 27,000 mph and the forces involved basically obliterated the projectile. The Earth is moving at something close to 64,000 mph or 18.5 m/s (miles per second).

Back in April of last year, Hubble found a comet that is approximately 500 trillion tons!

Imagine having to almost instantaneously accelerate 500 trillion tons of material to something near 18.5 miles per second. The forces involved would have to have been so enormous as to be completely implausible. The energy imparted would more easily vaporize the object than to send it, intact, into an orbit around the Sun. And that's just one of thousands of such objects that not only would have had to be similarly shot off the surface at such speeds but shot in just the right direction so as to cancel out the velocity of the Earth's motion relative to the Sun.

Now, theoretically, you could imagine an object being shot off the Earth at a speed just enough to escape Earth's gravity well and then at some later point the object interacts with another body, such as the Moon or another planet and is then given a gravitational assist in achieving an orbit around the Sun and that this happened not once but hundreds, if not thousands of times, but, in such a scenario, all you'll have done is swapped out one incredulity for another even bigger one.
 
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Right Divider

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That is utterly irrelevant to my point!
Then why did you mention the mass of the comet?
You really should be! :cool:

I just reread my post and I can't think of how to make the point any more clearly and so I'm just going to repeat myself (more or less).....

At best, shooting a comet sized piece of the earth into orbit AROUND THE SUN would have been like shooting these objects out of a very inefficient gun. The point is that once the object left this "barrel" of a gap in the crust, it would have had to have already achieved sufficient velocity to not only overcome the friction of moving through Earth's atmosphere on its way to space but also enough to lose a large percentage of its velocity relative to the Sun that it had by virtue of being part of the Earth when it started its journey.
Note that comet's were NOT launched as a SINGLE "comet sized piece of earth", but at numerous smaller pieces of varying sizes. The forces of gravity relative to each other attract them into "flying rock piles" that include a significant amount of water ice.

The matter ejected from the earth was scattered in ALL directions. So some it GAINED more
velocity compared to the motion of the earth and some LOST velocity compared to the motion of the earth (and everywhere in between).

Note that the friction of the earth's atmosphere was negligible compared to all of the other forces involved and can therefore be ignored.

Your underlined portion of that paragraph is simply false.
Just to give you an idea of the speeds involved. The fastest projectile that scientist have figured out how to shoot, accelerated a 1 gram projectile to 7.6 m/s (miles per second) or just over 27,000 mph and the forces involved basically obliterated the projectile. The Earth is moving at something close to 64,000 mph or 18.5 m/s (miles per second).
I don't see the relevance of "what scientists have figured out how to shoot" compared to what these forces that Dr. Brown describes were capable of doing.
Back in April of last year, Hubble found a comet that is approximately 500 trillion tons!
Again, that is a VERY, VERY small portion of the mass of the earth!
Imagine having to almost instantaneously accelerate 500 trillion tons of material to something near 18.5 miles per second. The forces involved would have to have been so enormous as to be completely implausible.
Again, appeal to the stone is not a good argument. Dr. Brown believes that there was sufficient energy released and so do I. Also note that the forces need not all be "instantaneous".
The energy imparted would more easily vaporize the object than to send it, intact, into an orbit around the Sun. And that's just one of thousands of such objects that not only would have had to be similarly shot off the surface at such speeds but shot in just the right direction so as to cancel out the velocity of the Earth's motion relative to the Sun.
Again, that is simply false. There is no need to "cancel out the velocity of the Earth's motion relative to the Sun".

Have you not watched this video?

Especially here:

Now, theoretically, you could imagine an object being shot off the Earth at a speed just enough to escape Earth's gravity well and then at some later point the object interacts with another body, such as the Moon or another planet and is then given a gravitational assist in achieving an orbit around the Sun and that this happened not once but hundreds, if not thousands of times, but, in such a scenario, all you'll have done is swapped out one incredulity for another even bigger one.
Again, appeals to the stone are not a good argument. I believe that Dr. Brown (and Bryan Nickel) have sufficiently explained the appropriate forces and actions required for explaining all of this.
 

Clete

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Then why did you mention the mass of the comet?
Because the mass is directly relevant to how much energy it would take to accelerate these objects into an orbit around the Sun.

Note that comet's were NOT launched as a SINGLE "comet sized piece of earth", but at numerous smaller pieces of varying sizes. The forces of gravity relative to each other attract them into "flying rock piles" that include a significant amount of water ice.

The matter ejected from the earth was scattered in ALL directions. So some it GAINED more
velocity compared to the motion of the earth and some LOST velocity compared to the motion of the earth (and everywhere in between).

Note that the friction of the earth's atmosphere was negligible compared to all of the other forces involved and can therefore be ignored.

Your underlined portion of that paragraph is simply false.
No it isn't. It make no difference whether the mass started as one big rock or a whole bunch of little ones. It's still the same about of mass with the same result. Breaking that mass into thousands a little pieces just make the problem harder for your side. The more complexity you add the more implausible it becomes.

I don't see the relevance of "what scientists have figured out how to shoot" compared to what these forces that Dr. Brown describes were capable of doing.
I was simply pointing out how much energy it takes to even get one single gram up to less than half of the Earth's orbital velocity around the Sun and how that amount of energy was prone to vaporizing the projectile, which was made of something with a much higher melting point (much less vapor point) than whatever it is comets are made of.

Again, that is a VERY, VERY small portion of the mass of the earth!
I don't care. It is utterly irrelevant. A mass' ratio to the mass of the Earth has nothing to do with how much energy it takes to accelerate it to 18 miles per second, which is the approximate speed it would have to be pushed in the opposite direction of Earth's travel around the Sun in order for it to end up in orbit around the Sun.

Again, appeal to the stone is not a good argument. Dr. Brown believes that there was sufficient energy released and so do I. Also note that the forces need not all be "instantaneous".
Dr. Brown's theory is supposed to be scientific, not religious. Who care what he "believes"?

And I am not making any sort of logically fallacious argument here. None of this is my opinion or my belief. The laws of physics requires a certain amount of energy to be applied to a given mass to accelerate it in a particular direction. The energies involved here would very easily vaporize the rock before luckily landing it in an orbit around the Sun.

Again, that is simply false. There is no need to "cancel out the velocity of the Earth's motion relative to the Sun".
Of course it isn't false. Just do a google search on how they went about sending the Parker Solar Probe to the Sun. Look for discussions about orbital dynamics and what they had to do to send that single 1500 lbs space craft into a solar orbit. What you'll find out is that in order to sink closer to the Sun, you have to cancel out the velocity that the Earth gave you. Otherwise, you're just in orbit with, if not around, the Earth.

Better than Google, let's ask Chat GPT!

"How much energy would it take to put one ounce of material into orbit around the sun from earth?"

The following answer was copy/pasted from ChatGPT. The formatting didn't survive in several places but it's the final answer the we care about so....

To calculate the energy required to put one ounce of material into orbit around the Sun from Earth, we need to consider the gravitational potential energy and the kinetic energy required to reach such an orbit.​
First, let's define some constants:​
Mass of the object (m): 1 ounce = 0.0283495 kg​
Gravitational constant (G): 6.67430×10−11 m3kg−1s−26.67430×10−11m3kg−1s−2​
Mass of the Earth (MEE): 5.972×1024 kg5.972×1024kg​
Radius of the Earth (REE): 6.371×106 m6.371×106m​
Distance from the Earth to the Sun (RSS): 1.496×1011 m1.496×1011m​
Mass of the Sun (MSS): 1.989×1030 kg1.989×1030kg​
Step-by-Step Calculation:​
Escape Velocity from Earth:​
The escape velocity (vescesc) from Earth is given by:​
vesc=2GMERE​
vesc=RE2GME​
Kinetic Energy to Escape Earth:​
The kinetic energy (KEescesc) required to reach escape velocity is:​
KEesc=12mvesc2​
KEesc=21mvesc2​
Gravitational Potential Energy Change:​
The gravitational potential energy (Uchangechange) required to move the object from Earth's surface to a point in orbit around the Sun is:​
ΔU=−G(MEmRE+MSmRS)​
ΔU=−G(REMEm+RSMSm)​
(Note: This accounts for both escaping Earth's gravity and moving into orbit around the Sun.)​
Total Energy Required:​
The total energy required is the sum of the kinetic energy to escape Earth and the change in gravitational potential energy:​
Etotal=KEesc+ΔU​
Etotal=KEesc+ΔU​
Let's calculate this step by step:​
1. Escape Velocity from Earth:​
vesc=2⋅6.67430×10−11⋅5.972×10246.371×106​
vesc=6.371×1062⋅6.67430×10−11⋅5.972×1024​
2. Kinetic Energy to Escape Earth:​
KEesc=12⋅0.0283495⋅vesc2​
KEesc=21⋅0.0283495⋅vesc2​
3. Gravitational Potential Energy Change:​
ΔU=−6.67430×10−11(5.972×1024⋅0.02834956.371×106+1.989×1030⋅0.02834951.496×1011)​
ΔU=−6.67430×10−11(6.371×1065.972×1024⋅0.0283495+1.496×10111.989×1030⋅0.0283495)​
4. Total Energy Required:​
Etotal=KEesc+ΔU​
Etotal=KEesc+ΔU​
Let's compute these values.​
Here are the results of the calculations:​
Escape Velocity from Earth: 11,185.98 m/s11,185.98m/s​
Kinetic Energy to Escape Earth: 1,773,631.21 Joules1,773,631.21Joules​
Gravitational Potential Energy Change: −26,930,368.64 Joules−26,930,368.64Joules​
Total Energy Required: −25,156,737.43 Joules−25,156,737.43Joules​
The negative total energy indicates that more energy is released (due to the potential energy change) than is required to escape Earth's gravity. This result might seem counterintuitive, but it reflects the fact that placing an object into orbit around the Sun requires overcoming Earth's gravity and then leveraging the Sun's gravity to maintain an orbit.​
Therefore, it would take approximately 25,156,737.43 Joules of energy to put one ounce of material into orbit around the Sun from Earth.​

So how much energy is that? Well, it's about the amount of energy a 60 watt light bulb uses in 116 hours or about 1/4 the energy consumed by the average American household in a day. That might not sound like a lot but that number is for once single ounce of material. Our 500 trillion ton comet that you want to act like isn't all that much material is 16,000,000,000,000,000,000 ounces. That's sixteen quintillion ounces.

If we do the math, that's 402.5 septillion joules of energy it would take to put 500 trillion tons of material into orbit around the Sun from the Earth. That's about 670 MILLION times the total annual energy consumption of the entire world, or 1.92 BILLION times the energy of the largest nuclear bomb ever tested. And that's just the energy that would have acted (almost instantaneously by the way) on that 500 trillion tons of material. It doesn't account at all for all the wasted energy that was spent spewing material in every direction other than that which would have allowed anything to end up in any sort of orbit around anything at all.

I'm telling ya. It just could not have happened that way!

Have you not watched this video?

Especially here:


Again, appeals to the stone are not a good argument.
I've watched the videos (it's been a while) and I have no idea what "appeal to the stone" even means. I'm appealing to orbital mechanics and good old fashioned Newtonian laws of physics.

I believe that Dr. Brown (and Bryan Nickel) have sufficiently explained the appropriate forces and actions required for explaining all of this.
All I've ever seen Dr. Brown do is theorize that it happened and postulated the release of super critical water as the power source. I've been skeptical of this particular point right from the very first time I read it. It simply would require far too much energy. The energy source is irrelevant. If you set off every atomic bomb that currently exists on Earth at once under a mass of material equivalent to even one single comet, the vast majority of the material would vaporize, the rest would be flung all over the planet with maybe a smidge making it into space only to fall straight back down again and some tiny percentage MIGHT end up in orbit around the Earth and not one single gram of it would end up in orbit around the Sun. It's just not possible.
 

Right Divider

Body part
@Clete Do you want to know what I find implausible?
I find it implausible that Dr. Brown, who has a Ph.D in Mechanical Engineering and has studied this topic for decades, would miss something so fundamental that you seem to think that a high school science student would understand it. I find it implausible that Dr. Brown's theory makes many predictions that are now confirmed based on what you say cannot happen. (see Predictions 20-21 in In the Begging 9th edition, page 340).

Also, to reiterate what I said before about the forces involved. The equivalent of 300 quintillion tons of TNT. One ton of TNT produces 4.184 gigajoules. That's for ONE TON of TNT.

So 300 million trillions tons of TNT products 1.2252 x 10^29 joules.
That's ~122 octillion joules!

Also note that this scattering of earth debris is fundamental to HPT. It is the reason that the moons cycles went from 30 days to ~29.5 days. It is also one of the reasons why the earth year went from 360 days to ~365.25 days.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
I'm appealing to orbital mechanics and good old fashioned Newtonian laws of physics.
Then you should pay special attention to the section of that video pertaining to short, medium and long period comets. It gives excellent evidence that the material that makes up those comets was launched from earth. It starts about about 16:45


This section on the orbits of two well known comets is also excellent evidence that they originated from the earth:

 

Avajs

Active member
has anyone every provided an answer to what happens to all the heat (h bomb equivalents) brown has suggested? where does that go?
 
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