ECT Is there a TRANSDITION BETWEEN ISRAEL and THE GENTILES ??

[genuineoriginal]

I assume you are thinking this is about ceremonial and dietary. It is a very fine line between keeping them to obligate God and keeping them to celebrate God. Please see the end of Rom 11, the doxology. We find him asking 'who has ever given to God, that he owes anyone anything?' If you force another believer to celebrate the way you do, you are trying to obligate God to reward you for how you do. It is not acceptable to do so.

You, and many others, have it backwards.
See Romans 14.

 

[Danoh]

You, and many others, have it backwards.
See Romans 14.

Speaking of "Learn to read what is written," other than the principle of how Believers are to deal with one another as to their differences in understandings, the issues Romans 14 is dealing with were 1st Century issues that arose both as a result of, and during, the transition from Israel and the Law to the Body and its' Mystery Grace.

 

[Interplanner]

You, and many others, have it backwards.
See Romans 14.

What is "it" and what is backwards about "it."?

 

[Interplanner]

Speaking of "Learn to read what is written," other than the principle of how Believers are to deal with one another as to their differences in understandings, the issues Romans 14 is dealing with were 1st Century issues that arose both as a result of, and during, the transition from Israel and the Law to the Body and its' Mystery Grace.

Transition yes, mystery no. Not about grace at all. Nor about the nations access to the community of God. The mystery of Eph-Col-Rom material is Judaism's misunderstood thought that the nations would enter God's people through the Law. Gal 3:17 was written about this, and all the weight of Eph 3:5 falls on 'through the Gospel' not the Law. There is grace all over the OT and there is no hiding that the nations were to be given access. The question, issue, was how.

 

[Danoh]

Transition yes, mystery no. Not about grace at all. Nor about the nations access to the community of God. The mystery of Eph-Col-Rom material is Judaism's misunderstood thought that the nations would enter God's people through the Law. Gal 3:17 was written about this, and all the weight of Eph 3:5 falls on 'through the Gospel' not the Law. There is grace all over the OT and there is no hiding that the nations were to be given access. The question, issue, was how.

What is your understanding of the present and future status of the following high (heavenly) places mentioned in the following passage?

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[Interplanner]

What is your understanding of the present and future status of the following high (heavenly) places mentioned in the following passage?

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

They seem to keep deceiving people even now about the 'weak and miserable elements of the world' in Judaism and other religions. They are the same crowd mentioned in 2 Cor 4 blinding some people about the exact same things.

 

[Danoh]

They seem to keep deceiving people even now about the 'weak and miserable elements of the world' in Judaism and other religions. They are the same crowd mentioned in 2 Cor 4 blinding some people about the exact same things.

You sound Charismatic in that answer.

I take it you are neither Charismatic to the extent that Preterist: I Am A Berean, is, nor fully Cessationist, though your view of Matt. 24B is that it is on hold, or some thing along that line?

Anyway, your view on the future status of those powers in Ephesians 6?

Thanks.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Speaking of "Learn to read what is written," other than the principle of how Believers are to deal with one another as to their differences in understandings, the issues Romans 14 is dealing with were 1st Century issues that arose both as a result of, and during, the transition from Israel and the Law to the Body and its' Mystery Grace.

What is "it" and what is backwards about "it."?

Antinomians keep trying to force believers to violate the law.
According to Romans 14, believers that do not keep the law have no right to judge believers for keeping the law and are to bend over backwards to avoid causing a crisis of conscience for believers that follow the law.
Instead, antinomians keep judging believers that keep the law and try to convince them to violate the law, which is the exact opposite of the instructions Paul gave.

 

[Interplanner]

Antinomians keep trying to force believers to violate the law.
According to Romans 14, believers that do not keep the law have no right to judge believers for keeping the law and are to bend over backwards to avoid causing a crisis of conscience for believers that follow the law.
Instead, antinomians keep judging believers that keep the law and try to convince them to violate the law, which is the exact opposite of the instructions Paul gave.

When you get to the NT era, you have the combination of ethical with ceremonial and dietary. The last two are hardly retained. So a little more precision is needed than you have supplied. The characters in 2 Pet 2 were abandoning the ethical. The characters in Gal 3-4 were abusing people for not keeping the ceremonial and dietary, and seeking justification from sins that way instead of in Christ.

 

[Interplanner]

You sound Charismatic in that answer.

I take it you are neither Charismatic to the extent that Preterist: I Am A Berean, is, nor fully Cessationist, though your view of Matt. 24B is that it is on hold, or some thing along that line?

Anyway, your view on the future status of those powers in Ephesians 6?

Thanks.

They are captives, Eph 4. But there are rumors that they have power. And the masses are very influenced by the rumors.

No, I don't have a file running on the future of the principalities and powers. The present age is one in which people can be free from them in the Gospel, and that's enough news for one day.

 

[genuineoriginal]

When you get to the NT era, you have the combination of ethical with ceremonial and dietary. The last two are hardly retained. So a little more precision is needed than you have supplied. The characters in 2 Pet 2 were abandoning the ethical. The characters in Gal 3-4 were abusing people for not keeping the ceremonial and dietary, and seeking justification from sins that way instead of in Christ.

And the people in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 were trying to offend the conscience of other believers by telling them there was no harm in violating the ceremonial and dietary laws.
Paul's instructions to those people were to stop trying to get other believers to offend their conscience by violating the law.

1 Corinthians 8:12 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.​

Well, look at that.
Christians who keep trying to get other believers to stop following the law are sinning against Christ.

 

[Danoh]

And the people in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 were trying to offend the conscience of other believers by telling them there was no harm in violating the ceremonial and dietary laws.
Paul's instructions to those people were to stop trying to get other believers to offend their conscience by violating the law.

1 Corinthians 8:12 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.​

Well, look at that.
Christians who keep trying to get other believers to stop following the law are sinning against Christ.

:doh:

I guess James and Paul were each in their way as you put it "sinning against Christ."

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

That "rumor" about what Paul was teaching both Jews and Gentiles was true, by the way.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[genuineoriginal]

:doh:

I guess James and Paul were each in their way as you put it "sinning against Christ."

Paul said causing another believe to do what that other believer knows is sin is sinning against Christ.
Neither James nor Paul taught believers to sin.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

That "rumor" about what Paul was teaching both Jews and Gentiles was true, by the way.

Paul never taught Jews to forsake Moses and that Jews were not to circumcise their children nor walk after the customs.
So, you appear to be completely mistaken.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Antinomians love to twist these verses into a condemnation of God for giving His Law to the children of Israel.
Peter calls your interpretation of Paul's words: "The error of the wicked."

2 Peter 3:15-17 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.​

 

[Danoh]

Paul said causing another believe to do what that other believer knows is sin is sinning against Christ.
Neither James nor Paul taught believers to sin.


Paul never taught Jews to forsake Moses and that Jews were not to circumcise their children nor walk after the customs.
So, you appear to be completely mistaken.


Antinomians love to twist these verses into a condemnation of God for giving His Law to the children of Israel.
Peter calls your interpretation of Paul's words: "The error of the wicked."

2 Peter 3:15-17 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.​

More of your nonsense.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The correct opposition to what it is actually nothing more than Legalism on your part is not Antinomianism, but Grace, you fool, Gal. 3:1.

There is nothing wrong with the Law.

We are just not under it, this side of the Grace of God in His Son.

Grace is not against good works, it just does not bless on the Performance Based System the Law blessed on the basis of.

Fool; if you are going to debate another's view; first learn what it ACTUALLY is.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

O never mind; remain in your mess o narrow minded one.

Next!

 

[genuineoriginal]

More of your nonsense.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Please tell me what you are doing to establish the law.

There is nothing wrong with the Law.

We are just not under it, this side of the Grace of God in His Son.

You do know that a person can keep the Law without being under it, right?

Grace is not against good works, it just does not bless on the Performance Based System the Law blessed on the basis of.

Fool; if you are going to debate another's view; first learn what it ACTUALLY is.

I have heard your view often enough to know that it is based on condemning Christians for doing anything that looks like keeping the Law.
You haven't even tried to learn what my view ACTUALLY is.

Paul condemned Christians who were so proud of their liberty that they would teach other Christians to do things that the other Christians knew were a sin for them to do.
You haven't learned why Paul did that.
Maybe you haven't even tried to learn what Paul's view ACTUALLY is and have run off chasing someone else's view that is only half of Paul's view.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

O never mind; remain in your mess o narrow minded one.

Paul had arguments against several false doctrines.
The two false doctrines that match our debate are:

1. Belief that a Christian needed to be circumcised and keep the whole law
2. Belief that a Christian could rebel against God's commandments without any consequences

You keep accusing me of believing in the first false doctrine when I am trying to counter your belief in the second false doctrine.

 

[Danoh]

Please tell me what you are doing to establish the law.


You do know that a person can keep the Law without being under it, right?


I have heard your view often enough to know that it is based on condemning Christians for doing anything that looks like keeping the Law.
You haven't even tried to learn what my view ACTUALLY is.

Paul condemned Christians who were so proud of their liberty that they would teach other Christians to do things that the other Christians knew were a sin for them to do.
You haven't learned why Paul did that.
Maybe you haven't even tried to learn what Paul's view ACTUALLY is and have run off chasing someone else's view that is only half of Paul's view.


Paul had arguments against several false doctrines.
The two false doctrines that match our debate are:

1. Belief that a Christian needed to be circumcised and keep the whole law
2. Belief that a Christian could rebel against God's commandments without any consequences

You keep accusing me of believing in the first false doctrine when I am trying to counter your belief in the second false doctrine.

1-Please relate this perversion of yours as to what Paul supposedly did physically in Romans 3 to "establish the law."

For you have misunderstood his intended sense.

2-I am not under the law.

3-You have not heard my view. You have read how SOME of those others within MAD who post on TOL explain their understanding.

Reaping and sewing not often explained by them.

Then again, you would only gainsay it.

4-I understand anyone's view on this issue the moment they spout any part of their view on it.

All said understanding requires is a basic grounding in Romans 1 through 5.

Fact is, you are obviously off on what Paul meant by "we establish the law."

He actually says what he meant by that just several passages earlier in the chapter.

 

[genuineoriginal]

2-I am not under the law.

I agree.

Now the only question is whether you follow 1 John 5:3 or whether you are mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:9.

 

[Danoh]

I agree.

Now the only question is whether you follow 1 John 5:3 or whether you are mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:9.

You mean YOUR perversion of such passages.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

But being that yours is the kind of reasoning that sits there looking at pasages from various angles until passages like James 2 are rationalized into some sort of Romans 4 part two, I doubt we will get anywhere with one another - have failed to understand what Paul meant by "we establish the law."

Just as you have failed to understand both the sense, and impact of, Gal. 2:7-9 on Hebrews thru Revelation as to the place of their "instruction in righteousness."

 

[genuineoriginal]

You mean YOUR perversion of such passages.

No, I mean the writer's intention of the passages, which you trample on because they do not fit your doctrines.

But being that yours is the kind of reasoning that sits there looking at pasages from various angles until passages like James 2 are rationalized into some sort of Romans 4 part two, I doubt we will get anywhere with one another - have failed to understand what Paul meant by "we establish the law."

Spend a few weeks on nothing except trying to understand what Paul said in Romans 2 and you may start to understand what he really meant when he said "we establish the law."

 

[Danoh]

I doubt we'd have a same understanding of the actual sense of Romans 2.

For without the actual sense of Rom. 1:18-3:20; all sorts of misunderstandings arise as to what the Apostle Paul is actually talking about as to who, when, were, why, and how.