So, Jerusalem is/was a living, breathing being, in and of itself?
Is the doctrine of predestination in conflict with the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
So, Jerusalem is/was a living, breathing being, in and of itself?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Prophetically speaking, yes.
Are you a Lutheran, Methodist or Presbyterian?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
What church or denomination?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Small non-denominational independent church.
HisServant
New member
That verse says US... who was this US he was talking about?... it certainly wasn't the entire world.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Robert says the whole world has been reconciled to God, and one reading of that passage makes that seem at least possible...but the verse right after shows that only believers have their sins not imputed to them - and it is only they who have been reconciled to God...
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
Believers HAVE BEEN reconciled...the world (generally) IS BEING reconciled...the call to unbelievers is BE YE RECONCILED.
If that reconciliation is already universal, then all are believers and (contra Paul) ARE reconciled (in Robert's understanding).
Seems to me the universalism charge has some merit...
HisServant
New member
I think you should do a little research on the scoping problems with ancient greek and hebrew when applied to modern english words.
For instance, Hebrew never had a word that inferred all people or entire world.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I have no argument for or against the scope. To me, it seems a stretch to read an absolute universal everytime one says "world". But that's nearly impossible to argue without getting into the Greek grammar (something I can't do). But when reading the english text, it seems apparent to me that the universalism Robert wants to assert is not supported by this passage that he quoted. He reads it that God has already reconciled the whole world but the whole passage makes it clear that while He is reconciling the world (people from every tongue, tribe and nation), not everyone is reconciled. The conclusion is that the idea of being reconciled to Christ carries with it the understanding of salvation.
Therefore, if Robert wants to use this passage as support, he actually is asserting universalism.
At least that's the way I read the English...
Reconciliation with God has been provided by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus is the reconciler. Jesus in our name and on our behalf has reconciled us to God. We had nothing, absolutly nothing to do with this. This reconciliation is ours when we accept it. If you don't accept what God has done for us in Jesus Christ then the reconciliating work of Jesus Christ is not yours.
Error.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Are the world's sins imputed to it now? That is, are ALL sins everywhere and to everyone NOT imputed right now (as actual and not potential fact)?
This is the age of grace and faith.
For now God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ.
God is at peace with the world because of Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20-22. However, there will be a judgment when Christ returns.
So, Christ died for everyone, meaning everyone who agrees with Pate.
Dime a dozen- there's somebody no doubt right down the street from myself telling others to repent for not being, I dunno, Anabaptist.
:chuckle:
nikolai_42
Well-known member
No...not the whole world.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 5:1
Yes the whole world, 1 John 4:14, just like the scripture says, unless you believe that Paul is a liar.
We have peace with God when we trust in Christ.
The Bible tells us who the "he" is, 1 John 5:7. "And these three are one".
Paul didn't mean that you have to work for your salvation.
What he meant was figure it all out, know how you are saved.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Your post above (#77) says God is at peace with the world. So God has peace with every man but not every man has peace with God?!?