Is the doctrine of predestination in conflict with the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Of course it is. That is why many Christians oppose it. If you believe that you have been predestinated to be saved before the foundation of the world by God, then who needs Jesus Christ and his Gospel? The focus is no longer on Christ and his Gospel, the focus is on your predestination.

In the Gospel Jesus comes into the world as the new Adam and humanities new representative. The old Adam and old representative brought sin and death upon us, Romans 5:12. Jesus brings righteousness and eternal life. The free gift of salvation came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life, Romans 5:18. Calvinist and others that believe in predestination do not believe that the free gift of salvation came upon ALL MEN, nor do they believe that Jesus provides salvation for ALL MEN. Here is the conflict with the Gospel.

"Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.

Predestinationist simply do not believe the above scripture, they do not believe that Jesus has reconciled everyone and the whole world unto God as the Bible teaches. They are in conflict with the Bible and the Gospel.

"God was in Christ Reconciling us and the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

To believe the above scripture is to believe that the doctrine of predestination is false. Who and why would anyone need to be predestinated if God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself through Jesus Christ? If salvation has been provided for ALL MEN through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then why does anyone need to be predestinated? This is another conflict between the doctrine of predestination and the Gospel.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 4:14. What this means is that God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished and Jesus is now Lord, Colossians 2:15. This is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Do Calvinist believe this? Of course not. It is in direct conflict with the doctrine of predestination.
 
fishrovmen

fishrovmen

Active member
You seem to be the most focused on predestination than everyone else on TOL combined. You are arguing with yourself at this point because you have been refuted and corrected ad nauseum. Enjoy yourself Pate!
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
fishrovmen said:
You seem to be the most focused on predestination than everyone else on TOL combined. You are arguing with yourself at this point because you have been refuted and corrected ad nauseum. Enjoy yourself Pate!
Click to expand...

Your Calvinist religion has been exposed again and you don't like it.

Repent and believe the Gospel while there is still time.
 
H

HisServant

New member
Robert Pate said:
Your Calvinist religion has been exposed again and you don't like it.

Repent and believe the Gospel while there is still time.
Click to expand...

Actually, you have been exposed as lacking basic discernment skills.

You pick and chose what you like from scripture and ignore the rest... at your own peril.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Of course it is. That is why many Christians oppose it. If you believe that you have been predestinated to be saved before the foundation of the world by God, then who needs Jesus Christ and his Gospel? The focus is no longer on Christ and his Gospel, the focus is on your predestination.

In the Gospel Jesus comes into the world as the new Adam and humanities new representative. The old Adam and old representative brought sin and death upon us, Romans 5:12. Jesus brings righteousness and eternal life. The free gift of salvation came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life, Romans 5:18. Calvinist and others that believe in predestination do not believe that the free gift of salvation came upon ALL MEN, nor do they believe that Jesus provides salvation for ALL MEN. Here is the conflict with the Gospel.

"Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.

Predestinationist simply do not believe the above scripture, they do not believe that Jesus has reconciled everyone and the whole world unto God as the Bible teaches. They are in conflict with the Bible and the Gospel.

"God was in Christ Reconciling us and the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

To believe the above scripture is to believe that the doctrine of predestination is false. Who and why would anyone need to be predestinated if God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself through Jesus Christ? If salvation has been provided for ALL MEN through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then why does anyone need to be predestinated? This is another conflict between the doctrine of predestination and the Gospel.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 4:14. What this means is that God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished and Jesus is now Lord, Colossians 2:15. This is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Do Calvinist believe this? Of course not. It is in direct conflict with the doctrine of predestination.
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If Christ only came to save those He knew would accept Him, how would you tell the difference between that and a situation where He was coming to those He hoped would choose Him (which is, in your view, every last person who ever lived)?
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
HisServant said:
Actually, you have been exposed at having basic discernment skills.

You pick and chose what you like from scripture and ignore the rest... at your own peril.
Click to expand...

I pick and chose the whole Bible, not just some scripture.

I do not have a problem with any of the scriptures, including those that you think teaches Calvinism.
 
H

HisServant

New member
Robert Pate said:
I pick and chose the whole Bible, not just some scripture.

I do not have a problem with any of the scriptures, including those that you think teaches Calvinism.
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I'm sorry, but you obviously do, and that has been exposed in multiple threads on this board.... you will not listen to reason.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
nikolai_42 said:
If Christ only came to save those He knew would accept Him, how would you tell the difference between that and a situation where He was coming to those He hoped would choose Him (which is, in your view, every last person who ever lived)?
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Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

Not everyone wants it. Many are trying to save themselves through religion.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Robert Pate said:
Of course it is. That is why many Christians oppose it. If you believe that you have been predestinated to be saved before the foundation of the world by God, then who needs Jesus Christ and his Gospel? The focus is no longer on Christ and his Gospel, the focus is on your predestination.

In the Gospel Jesus comes into the world as the new Adam and humanities new representative. The old Adam and old representative brought sin and death upon us, Romans 5:12. Jesus brings righteousness and eternal life. The free gift of salvation came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life, Romans 5:18. Calvinist and others that believe in predestination do not believe that the free gift of salvation came upon ALL MEN, nor do they believe that Jesus provides salvation for ALL MEN. Here is the conflict with the Gospel.

"Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.

Predestinationist simply do not believe the above scripture, they do not believe that Jesus has reconciled everyone and the whole world unto God as the Bible teaches. They are in conflict with the Bible and the Gospel.

"God was in Christ Reconciling us and the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

To believe the above scripture is to believe that the doctrine of predestination is false. Who and why would anyone need to be predestinated if God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself through Jesus Christ? If salvation has been provided for ALL MEN through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then why does anyone need to be predestinated? This is another conflict between the doctrine of predestination and the Gospel.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 4:14. What this means is that God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished and Jesus is now Lord, Colossians 2:15. This is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Do Calvinist believe this? Of course not. It is in direct conflict with the doctrine of predestination.
Click to expand...

Excellent OP
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
nikolai_42 said:
If Christ only came to save those He knew would accept Him, how would you tell the difference between that and a situation where He was coming to those He hoped would choose Him (which is, in your view, every last person who ever lived)?
Click to expand...

Christ paid the price for the sins of ALL mankind. However, only those
who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior, will
benefit by our Savior's sacrifice. That's what you people don't understand.
Pate gets it, you and your ilk, don't. You think Pate is a Universalist and
he's not. You guys misunderstand what he's saying.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Re-word the question. I am not sure that I understand it.
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How could you (as a man) distinguish between salvation as evidence of Christ's work in those for whom He came and salvation as the direct result of man's decision? In other words, does man's sovereign (over himself) and autonomous decision cause him to be in Christ or is it a reflection of the work of the Holy Spirit that happens in someone who - left to themselves - rejects God?
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Revelation 20:12 states: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;
and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of
life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works."

Why doesn't it say: "according to their sins?" Because, Christ took care of the
sin question at the cross. The unsaved (rejectors of the Gospel) will have to
stand before God and be judged by their WORKS!
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Grosnick Marowbe said:
Christ paid the price for the sins of ALL mankind. However, only those
who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior, will
benefit by our Savior's sacrifice. That's what you people don't understand.
Pate gets it, you and your ilk, don't. You think Pate is a Universalist and
he's not. You guys misunderstand what he's saying.
Click to expand...

The Calvinist defines universalism in two different ways. One way is that Jesus died for all without exception. That is Pate by his own words. The other way is the way most others define it - that all will ultimately be saved. The thing that the first kind of universalist implies by his rejection of the second kind is that Christ came to save some who will not be saved. If salvation is pre-eminently the work of Christ and not determined (at least, not started) by the effort or will of man, then the conclusion has to be that Christ did not save all those He came to save.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:29

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:38-40
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
nikolai_42 said:
How could you (as a man) distinguish between salvation as evidence of Christ's work in those for whom He came and salvation as the direct result of man's decision? In other words, does man's sovereign (over himself) and autonomous decision cause him to be in Christ or is it a reflection of the work of the Holy Spirit that happens in someone who - left to themselves - rejects God?
Click to expand...

I can only speak for myself. I was convicted by the Holy Spirit of my need for Christ and his Gospel. I had been convicted before but just brushed it off. This time the call was quite strong and I accepted Christ as my savior. I believe that I could have rejected the call again, but I didn't.

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ. Some come, some reject. It is all up to us. God does not impose salvation on anyone, if he did he would be unjust.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
nikolai_42 said:
The Calvinist defines universalism in two different ways. One way is that Jesus died for all without exception. That is Pate by his own words. The other way is the way most others define it - that all will ultimately be saved. The thing that the first kind of universalist implies by his rejection of the second kind is that Christ came to save some who will not be saved. If salvation is pre-eminently the work of Christ and not determined (at least, not started) by the effort or will of man, then the conclusion has to be that Christ did not save all those He came to save.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:29

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:38-40
Click to expand...

The verses you mentioned aren't speaking to the Body of Christ/gentiles.
They're speaking to the House of Israel.

That's why it's essential to be able to "Rightly Divide" the written word of God.
 
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