Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Dispensation of Grace?

[Right Divider]

I was making it as simple as I could.

No, you were hedging.

Answer me this…
God said they would never cease being a nation.

Please.... Please... PLEASE.

QUOTE the scripture so that we can look at it more closely.

He said the sun the moon and the starts would cease first.

Again QUOTE IT!

So, I'm pretty sure that you talking about this, which talking about the FUTURE:

Jer 31:31-40 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (31:35) ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: (31:36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (31:37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. (31:38) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. (31:39) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. (31:40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, [shall be] holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.​

BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME... It's all about the time when God institutes the new covenant.

So, when the prophets speak of a nation being born in a day, what do you think?

I think that it will happen.

Clearly that is speaking of Israel being recognized among the nations.

Clearly, you still cannot provide any actual support for the claim that 1948 was the fulfillment of scripture.

It isn’t my claim.

Yes, it is.

They exist and everyone seems to understand they are Jews except you guys.

Stop using fallacies and start providing support.

Why is that, do you think? I’m pretty sure I know. it’s quite maddening.

You can mock all that you want. It is YOU that has problems because you cannot provide a single shred of actual evidence to support your claim.

 

[glorydaz]

No, you were hedging.

Please.... Please... PLEASE.

QUOTE the scripture so that we can look at it more closely.

Again QUOTE IT!

So, I'm pretty sure that you talking about this, which talking about the FUTURE:

Jer 31:31-40 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (31:35) ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: (31:36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (31:37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. (31:38) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. (31:39) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. (31:40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, [shall be] holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.​

BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME... It's all about the time when God institutes the new covenant.

I think that it will happen.

Clearly, you still cannot provide any actual support for the claim that 1948 was the fulfillment of scripture.

Yes, it is.

Stop using fallacies and start providing support.

You can mock all that you want. It is YOU that has problems because you cannot provide a single shred of actual evidence to support your claim.

I’m not so sure you have an ear to hear, because I was teasing not mocking.

Yes, I‘d like you to focus on this portion. We see here that the seed of Israel will not cease to be a nation. That they shall never be cast off.

Jer. 31:
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Indeed the day comes, not just speaking of the final coming of the Lord, but The lead up. All of it is spoken of in Ezekiel. He doesn’t write his book like a novel. AND stop telling me I’m using fallacies. Just because you don’t see it, not my fault.

Besides every verse I post, you guys poo poo it.

Until you can explain where this nation of Israel popped up from, you’re just wasting time. Israel, the nation had been scattered, as was predicted. Then in the years 1948, those dry bones were gathered back into the land. No one wanted them because they were Jews. But, get used to it, because they are in the news for a reason……busy fulfilling scripture as we speak. They are preparing the temple items, and gathering the red heifers. Clear enough for any one with half an eye to see.

 

[Right Divider]

I’m not so sure you have an ear to hear, because I was teasing not mocking.

Whatever...

Yes, I‘d like you to focus on this portion. We see here that the seed of Israel will not cease to be a nation. That they shall never be cast off.

Again, if you read the passage, it is speaking of a future time.

Jer 31:31-40 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (31:35) ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: (31:36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (31:37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. (31:38) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. (31:39) And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. (31:40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, [shall be] holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.​

BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME...

When God fulfills the NEW COVENANT, they will all be spirit filled and following the law. Everyone will know the LORD.

Indeed the day comes, not just speaking of the final coming of the Lord, but The lead up. All of it is spoken of in Ezekiel. He doesn’t write his book like a novel. AND stop telling me I’m using fallacies. Just because you don’t see it, not my fault.

You have often used the appeal to popularity fallacy. Like when you said this:

They exist and everyone seems to understand they are Jews except you guys.

That is an appeal to popularity and it IS a fallacy.

Besides every verse I post, you guys poo poo it.

Not true. We disagree with your understanding of them.

Until you can explain where this nation of Israel popped up from, you’re just wasting time. Israel, the nation had been scattered, as was predicted.

They have been scattered many times. They were taken into captivity many times.

Then in the years 1948, those dry bones were gathered back into the land.

Again, a claim... repeating your claim is not support for it.

No one wanted them because they were Jews.

There are more Jews is the United States than in Israel.

But, get used to it, because they are in the news for a reason……busy fulfilling scripture as we speak.

Again, DOCUMENT these fulfillments.

They are preparing the temple items, and gathering the red heifers.

Cool... some day God will take the body of Christ out of the way and their prophecies will start being fulfilled.

Clear enough for any one with half an eye to see.

Another appeal to popularity fallacy.

 

[glorydaz]

Yep, the nation of Israel is a fake nation. Got it.


I Was showing the proof you insisted on that God said Israel would never cease being a nation. Yes, that promise appears right there in the middle of a text, it doesn’t change the fact that Israel will never cease being a.nation. You seem to think this is some fluke of nature….a pretender we need to dismiss out of hand. Forget about their return. They are nothing.

 

[Right Divider]

Yep, the nation of Israel is a fake nation. Got it.


I Was showing the proof you insisted on that God said Israel would never cease being a nation. Yes, that promise appears right there in the middle of a text, it doesn’t change the fact that Israel will never cease being a.nation. You seem to think this is some fluke of nature….a pretender we need to dismiss out of hand. Forget about their return. They are nothing.

You don't pay attention to a single word that I post.

 

[Clete]

Isaiah 66:8
All throughout Ezekiel. Ez. 37:21-22 especially this one gathered into one nation. The problem with Ezekiel is that he says a lot of first this and then that. He is a wonderful study and well worth looking into.

Personally, I like this…He even says He does it for His own name’s sake.

Ezek. 37: 7 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame. 8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. 9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

In a lot of ways it's rather annoying that the nation of Israel was gone for a time. Had the Romans not wiped it from the map and they had continued to exist as a country for the last 2000 years, it would be a lot easier to convey the point here. That point being that the modern state of Israel is in no better shape spiritually now than it was when God cut down the fruitless fig tree a year or so after Pentecost. In short, Ezekiel 37 may or may not have any application to modern day Israel.

I'm curious about something. Let's say that it does have direct application to modern Israel and that their becoming a nation again in 1948 was a partial fulfillment of this prophesy; the prophecy also speaks of spiritual awakening, where God gives His Spirit to Israel (Ezekiel 37:14); do you believe that also has been fulfilled or is that yet future, and if yet future then what do you suppose that spiritual awakening will look like? Are they to become believers in Christ who practice their religion in keeping with what is described in the book of Hebrews (i.e. no animal sacrifices, etc) or are they to be practicing Jews with all the commensurate temple worship and ritualistic practices?

 

[glorydaz]

You don't pay attention to a single word that I post.

I do, but you keep going off topic.

 

[Right Divider]

I do, but you keep going off topic.

That is simply false.

 

[glorydaz]

In a lot of ways it's rather annoying that the nation of Israel was gone for a time. Had the Romans not wiped it from the map and they had continued to exist as a country for the last 2000 years, it would be a lot easier to convey the point here. That point being that the modern state of Israel is in no better shape spiritually now than it was when God cut down the fruitless fig tree a year or so after Pentecost. In short, Ezekiel 37 may or may not have any application to modern day Israel.

True, they are in no better shape spiritually than they were, but they are still Jews. They are dry bones, without the Spirit. However, these people did not get to the place they are today without the Lord’s help. He caused the land to come alive. That dry branch has bloomed.

I'm curious about something. Let's say that it does have direct application to modern Israel and that their becoming a nation again in 1948 was a partial fulfillment of this prophesy; the prophecy also speaks of spiritual awakening, where God gives His Spirit to Israel (Ezekiel 37:14); do you believe that also has been fulfilled or is that yet future, and if yet future then what do you suppose that spiritual awakening will look like? Are they to become believers in Christ who practice their religion in keeping with what is described in the book of Hebrews (i.e. no animal sacrifices, etc) or are they to be practicing Jews with all the commensurate temple worship and ritualistic practices?

From what I’ve gleaned so far, Israel will be attacked and only a third will survive. That remnant will be gathered, some think in Petra, and after 31/2 years, they will be filled with Spirit, accepting Jesus as their Messiah.

I’m not sure if they will be Messianic, but it makes sense to me. It’s only the last few months I even knew there were believing Jews who still followed tradition.

Because the Antichrist allows them to rebuild the temple and conduct animal sacrifices for 3 1/2 years, before he demands to be worshipped, many will flee because they refuse to bow down. I don’t know as I’m not a Bible scholar, but I have picked up things over the years. I really had no idea there were so many prophecies, and many, if not all, have both near and far fulfillments.

 

[glorydaz]

That is simply false.

Okay, I kept speaking of the sun moon and stars being gone before the Jews ceased being a nation before Him, and you kept insisting I cite the verse. I’m slow and having a hard time with this machine, and you found it before me. That was fine, but when I asked you to focus on just those two verses….which spoke to the issue at hand, you swamped me with the entire text again. You literally ignored the nugget buried in there. Nuggets of truths are buried in prophecy, and, Mr. Smart Pants , there are more Jews in Israel than there are in the US.

 

[Right Divider]

Okay, I kept speaking of the sun moon and stars being gone before the Jews ceased being a nation before Him, and you kept insisting I cite the verse.

Again, you're having problems with the facts.

I insisted ONCE that you QUOTE the Bible passage that you were referring to.

I’m slow and having a hard time with this machine, and you found it before me. That was fine, but when I asked you to focus on just those two verses….which spoke to the issue at hand, you swamped me with the entire text again.

Again, I first pointed out that the verse that you were using is NOT what you claim it to be. It is about the FUTURE, after God institutes and implements the NEW COVENANT. The text is CLEAR about that.

Unless you somehow think that THIS is already true (it's not):

Jer 31:34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

You literally ignored the nugget buried in there.

No, I literally refuted your interpretation every time you mentioned it.

Nuggets of truths are buried in prophecy, and, Mr. Smart Pants , there are more Jews in Israel than there are in the US.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-of-the-world
2 Data as of May 9, 2024.

 

[Idolater]

Jesus wasn’t lying. He was speaking of the generation that sees the fig tree blooming will not pass away.

I am amazed that you refuse to believe the Israel today is the same nation spoken of in the Bible. If that were so, we would have read about some false Israel in the Bible. The Israel today is exactly like the Israel we read about in the Bible. Until you admit that, you’ll be stuck accusing others of speaking nonsense.

Israel today is a constitutional government, ancient Israel was an absolute monarchy.

 

[glorydaz]

Israel today is a constitutional government, ancient Israel was an absolute monarchy.

Seriously? Israel is a nation, and always has been.

1 Chron. 17:20-22
20 O Lord, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

21 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

22 For thy people Israel didst thou make thine own people for ever; and thou, Lord, becamest their God.

 

[glorydaz]

Again, you're having problems with the facts.

I insisted ONCE that you QUOTE the Bible passage that you were referring to.

Again, I first pointed out that the verse that you were using is NOT what you claim it to be. It is about the FUTURE, after God institutes and implements the NEW COVENANT. The text is CLEAR about that.

Unless you somehow think that THIS is already true (it's not):

Jer 31:34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

No, I literally refuted your interpretation every time you mentioned it.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-of-the-world
2 Data as of May 9, 2024.
View attachment 13269

Yes, I know, brother, you insisted. You insist on a lot of things, but that’s okay.

The fact is, God’s chosen people are back in the land. Regathered as predicted. You just don’t want to face the fact that the Israel of God is back in the land.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, I know, brother, you insisted. You insist on a lot of things, but that’s okay.

I asked ONCE that you actually quote the scripture that you were referring to. Why does that bother you?

The fact is, God’s chosen people are back in the land. Regathered as predicted. You just don’t want to face the fact that the Israel of God is back in the land.

Again, repeating your claim without support.

 

[Clete]

True, they are in no better shape spiritually than they were, but they are still Jews.

Please tell me who here or in any other venue of your entire life has ever at any time suggested or implied that they are not Jews?

Please tell me because they aren't on this thread or anywhere on this website so far as I can tell!

They are dry bones, without the Spirit.

And is that the prophecy, then? That God would resurrect a zombie version of Israel? I don't get it.

However, these people did not get to the place they are today without the Lord’s help.

How do you know this?

He caused the land to come alive. That dry branch has bloomed.

By what standard?

Because you say so?

From what I’ve gleaned so far, Israel will be attacked and only a third will survive.

Based on what?

That remnant will be gathered, some think in Petra, and after 31/2 years, they will be filled with Spirit, accepting Jesus as their Messiah.

Based on what?

I’m not sure if they will be Messianic, but it makes sense to me.

In what possible manner could they fulfill the prophesies if they were not believers?

It’s only the last few months I even knew there were believing Jews who still followed tradition.

There have been Messianic Jews for a very very long time. Thousands of years.

Because the Antichrist allows them to rebuild the temple and conduct animal sacrifices for 3 1/2 years, before he demands to be worshipped, many will flee because they refuse to bow down.

And this is the Israel that you think is the branch that has bloomed? I don't get it.

I don’t know as I’m not a Bible scholar, but I have picked up things over the years. I really had no idea there were so many prophecies, and many, if not all, have both near and far fulfillments.

What you need to understand is that I am not denying that. I've said repeatedly that the things happening with Israel today may very well be setting the stage for the end times but that such a belief has to be tempered by the fact that every generation of Christians have believed similar things for entire different reasons and they've all been wrong so might you be.

 

[Idolater]

Seriously? Israel is a nation, and always has been.

So with a constitutional government, if Jesus returns, where is the throne of David that He's going to sit on and reign from? Constitutional governments don't have a real crown, if they even have one at all, they are figureheads; and Israel the modern nation governed by a constitutional regime doesn't even have that, so where will Christ sit if He returns?

That's why there's some reason to doubt that Israel today is the Israel in the Bible.

 

[glorydaz]

Please tell me who here or in any other venue of your entire life has ever at any time suggested or implied that they are not Jews?

Please tell me because they aren't on this thread or anywhere on this website so far as I can tell!


And is that the prophecy, then? That God would resurrect a zombie version of Israel? I don't get it.

RD has been saying the Israel today is not the one spoken of by the prophets. If he hasn’t been saying that, you sure could have fooled me. Then Idolator said the same.

Not a zombie version of Israel, but the physical descendants of Israel. The land has been prepared, they have been gathering back into their land, and finally were recognized by all nations as the nation of Israel.

Yes, in Ezekiel they are seen as dry bones….no spirit in them when they’re gathered.

How do you know this?


By what standard?

Because you say so?


Based on what?


Based on what?


In what possible manner could they fulfill the prophesies if they were not believers?

The prophets spoke of unbelievers and believers alike. The judgements against Israel were all told them before hand by the prophets. I would also add, the Jews are God’s chosen people even though they have rejected their Messiah.

There have been Messianic Jews for a very very long time. Thousands of years.


And this is the Israel that you think is the branch that has bloomed? I don't get it.


What you need to understand is that I am not denying that. I've said repeatedly that the things happening with Israel today may very well be setting the stage for the end times but that such a belief has to be tempered by the fact that every generation of Christians have believed similar things for entire different reasons and they've all been wrong so might you be.

Yeah, every generation. I agree with that. However, if we look at Daniel, we can’t help but see the time is super close.

Daniel 12:4. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The birth pangs have never been this obvious. Travel in the last 200 years alone. From horses and boats to supersonic jets and submarines. Technology where everyone can SEE what’s going on all over the world at the same time. And knowledge has increased exponentidally. So fast, in fact, we can’t keep up with it. Yep that baby is about to be born. That transition we’ve all been waiting for.

 

[glorydaz]

So with a constitutional government, if Jesus returns, where is the throne of David that He's going to sit on and reign from? Constitutional governments don't have a real crown, if they even have one at all, they are figureheads; and Israel the modern nation governed by a constitutional regime doesn't even have that, so where will Christ sit if He returns?

That's why there's some reason to doubt that Israel today is the Israel in the Bible.

Israel today will be decimated except for the remnant. Doesn’t mean they aren’t God’s chosen people.

 

[Right Divider]

Israel today will be decimated except for the remnant. Doesn’t mean they aren’t God’s chosen people.

God's people TODAY are the body of Christ and not the nation of Israel (nor the Jewish people).

They were His people and they will be again... once the body of Christ is removed.

You continue to ignore LO-AMMI... when does the LO-AMMI occur? What period of time does it cover?