Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

[godrulz]

The 12 were originally commanded to go into all the world, first to Israel then to the Gentiles. Why is it that changed; why was Paul called?

Everyone's ministry pattern, including Paul's, was to the Jew first, but not exclusively. Just as you might reach your own city before going to reach Africans, so there was a concentric progression of the gospel from Jerusalem to the whole world to fulfill the Great Commission. The Church is still doing this. Paul had a unique ministry to expand the gospel beyond sectarian borders, and we have a unique ministry in our day and age. This does not mean there is more than one NT, post-cross gospel.

The 12 did go beyond Jews, but were killed, got old, etc. The commission was not limited to the seed group, but to be carried out by millions of subsequent disciples that grew from the core. Likewise, the Holy Spirit continues the ministry of Jesus in a greater way than limited Christ on earth could. This does not mean the message of the Spirit is not Christ's (which is ultimately simple faith in His person and work, not words Jn. 6:28-29; Jn. 3:16 (grace/faith, not works).

 

[Guyver]

When I responded to AMR, I pointed out that James addresses his Epistle to the 12 Tribes Scattered abroad.

James 2:1 states the following....

"My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality."

Does this verse prove that it would be incorrect to view James as written to the 12 Tribes and not to the Christian Church?

Thoughts?

 

[DAN P]

The 12 were originally commanded to go into all the world, first to Israel then to the Gentiles. Why is it that changed; why was Paul called?

Where is a verse that says , first to Israel , then to Gentiles ??

If you say Matt 28:19 and 20 , Prove your premise , if you can ??

dan p

 

[nijjhar]

Messianic Jews corrupted the Gospel

Messianic Jews corrupted the Gospel

After the death of St.James, the Just, the sacked Temple Priests, Matt.12.v43-45, jumped over the walls of the Church of God with Torah in their armpits and poisoned the Church. Created atmosphere similar to the Jerusalem with people with hjardened waxes of Letters.

The Gentile of spirit, the Apostles were killed by the Messianic Jews under Emperor Constantine and they created DARKNESS for their Satanic activities.

Pope replaced Temple High Priest, Priests, Bishops, the Rabbis, et.making the Churches, the Synagogues of Satan. No body could speak his mind or be killed.

Holocausts were the fruit of Darkness when the Blind guides led the blind into Pit and the sectarian riots.

Today, they are getting bundled up in Israel for the Final Burning, Matt.13-v24-30.

No Peace in the Middle East or East.

Indeed! Even with us Jewish Christians!

 

[godrulz]

When I responded to AMR, I pointed out that James addresses his Epistle to the 12 Tribes Scattered abroad.

James 2:1 states the following....

"My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality."

Does this verse prove that it would be incorrect to view James as written to the 12 Tribes and not to the Christian Church?

Thoughts?

Some books, like Hebrews, were written to a primarily Jewish or Jewish Christian audience. Things were contextualized for them. Other books were written for a Gentile audience or both.

Matthew was slanted to Jews, Mark to Romans, Luke to Greeks, and John to believers. One emphasizes King, Servant, Son of Man, Son of God, etc.

Using MAD logic, are the Gospels one account of the life of Jesus or 4 different ones, 4 different gospels, messages, etc.

Just because Hebrews was for Jewish Christians and Romans contextualized the gospel for a Jewish and Gentile audience (Corinthians had many Gentiles, etc.) does not mean they are different gospels. Hebrews and Romans (apart from MAD error) are equally strong statements of the one true NT gospel, but contextualized with a different emphasis/argumentation/background for those of different backgrounds.

We can contextualize the gospel for an African tribe in a different way than reaching the Chinese or atheists. One gospel, but different audiences.

Gal. 2:7 one gospel, but a demarcation of ministry.

If a MAD proponent ever moves to a sounder NT theology, let me know. I will be delighted (just as a cessationist becoming a continuationist or a Calvinist becoming an Open Theist). Of course, my biggest rejoicing is when a sinner becomes a saint through the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[godrulz]

After the death of St.James, the Just, the sacked Temple Priests, Matt.12.v43-45, jumped over the walls of the Church of God with Torah in their armpits and poisoned the Church. Created atmosphere similar to the Jerusalem with people with hjardened waxes of Letters.

The Gentile of spirit, the Apostles were killed by the Messianic Jews under Emperor Constantine and they created DARKNESS for their Satanic activities.

Pope replaced Temple High Priest, Priests, Bishops, the Rabbis, et.making the Churches, the Synagogues of Satan. No body could speak his mind or be killed.

Holocausts were the fruit of Darkness when the Blind guides led the blind into Pit and the sectarian riots.

Today, they are getting bundled up in Israel for the Final Burning, Matt.13-v24-30.

No Peace in the Middle East or East.

It is an Islamic myth that the Scriptures are corrupted. It is also a myth that Mohammed was a true prophet, that the Koran is the Word of God, that Islam is true religion.

The Deity, death, resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is what makes Christianity unique and the only way to God the Father (all points of the gospel denied by Muslims).

 

[Nick M]

The 12 were originally commanded to go into all the world, first to Israel then to the Gentiles. Why is it that changed; why was Paul called?

And Paul went to Israel first, then the gentiles, yet he claims him and Peter have a different ministry.

 

[Nick M]

Gal. 2:7 one gospel, but a demarcation of ministry.

So tell us what it is and why.

 

[Guyver]

Godrulz, your post #25 was pretty good....but it kind of danced around my question. In James' opening, he addresses the twelve tribes, scattered abroad. In chapter 2 he admonishes Christians to not hold the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ with partiality.

So, what we see here is some confusing language. Of course it's possible that he was writing to Jewish Christians, and that does clear things up..and considering the times (ie. scattering and persecution) his admonitions make perfect sense.

What is important to consider though, and this is a point of MAD doctrine, is whether or not Gentile and Jewish Christians are held to the same standard or ways of living.

TBC

 

[Guyver]

There is a very good case to be made that they are not.

For example, in the early days of Gentiles being added to the church, this issue came up. Should Gentile converts to Jesus be expected to become circumcised and keep the laws of Moses?

The answer was no. Acts 15

"Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

"Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood."

So, in my mind.....we see a dispensation right here. First began by God through Peter, and continuing through Paul. Gentile Christian and Jewish Christians are not encouraged to live in the same manner.

Would you agree with this?

 

[Guyver]

PS to the above. This distinction between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians could also have been for a time and a season. That time and season was the proclaimation of the gospel throughout the world....and a transistioning away from the law.

Think about it. Christ died for all sins for all time; one time. Since this is true; what need would there be for a Jewish Temple....and daily sacrifices? The blood of bulls and goats no longer being necessary.

 

[Guyver]

Paul's ministry and revelations given to him by God came later and established this new dispensation of grace by emphasizing that all people are one in Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
Galatians 3:28

 

[Nick M]

Paul's ministry and revelations given to him by God came later....

This is one of our main points. You won't find the gospel, that Jesus died for your sins preached in the 4 gospels. You will find instruction to Israel to keep the law, and endure to the end to be saved.

Paul said he was the first and a pattern for the Body of Christ. He straight up said it. He is the prototype. He did not endure to the end. In fact, he persecuted the Jerusalem church and its followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. He was an enemy reconciled to God.

The same as us when we first believe his gospel. We don't deserve salvation.

 

[Guyver]

In my mind, there is one passage of scripture that so clearly establishes dispensationalism as proper; it's hard to see why it wasn't understood for so long. To me, it's a slam dunk proving that God does operate through dispensations, by way of times and seasons...and that these extend through covenants.

Ephesians Chapter 2

"Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father."

He made one new man from the two!

 

[Guyver]

This is one of our main points. You won't find the gospel, that Jesus died for your sins preached in the 4 gospels. You will find instruction to Israel to keep the law, and endure to the end to be saved.

This statement is not really true, or accurate, and it's kind of irrelevant Nick. Part of it is accurate...but there's a problem with trying to look at redemption just by the words recorded in the gospels, as there would be in trying to look at it only by the words of the prophets, the law and the Psalms.

It would be like taking a picture....that picture being redemption... and then zooming in on it until all you see is image in the middle, with the rest of the image blurred around the outsides.

The four gospels speak to Christ's life and ministry here on this earth. Jesus spoke prophetically about the gospel, the same as Isaiah and David did...because he hadn't died yet.

Isaiah prophecied the coming of the Lord, Jesus....the redeemer. Isaiah 9:6

He spoke to Christ's sufferings and the work of redemption. Isaiah 53:5

That his sacrifice would be for all people; Jew and Gentile. Isaiah 49:6

Jesus spoke of his sacrifice being for all people...prophetically...and the establishment of the New Covenant.

John 10:16
Matthew 26:28

Jesus spoke that salvation would be by grace through faith in him, and this salvation by grace is recorded in the gospel of John.

John 1:12
John 3:14-15
John 3:16
John 3:17
John 11:25
John 5:39
John 10:28
John 17:3

Paul said he was the first and a pattern for the Body of Christ. He straight up said it. He is the prototype. He did not endure to the end. In fact, he persecuted the Jerusalem church and its followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. He was an enemy reconciled to God. The same as us when we first believe his gospel.

Paul wasn't the first person saved by believing the gospel. I don't know what you're talking about here. And Paul wasn't like us because he wasn't a Gentile. He was a Jew, and specifically a Pharisee.

We don't deserve salvation.

No one does; that what grace means. It's unmerited favor. If someone could deserve salvation or earn it.....it wouldn't be by grace.

 

[Doormat]

1. Dispensational Theology distinguishes between Israel and the Church

Rightly so.

I disagree. You were grafted onto the Olive Tree, so what is the distinction? You've quoted Ephesians above where it states you are now a fellow citizen of Israel.

Please explain what you think the Olive Tree is and how you were grafted in.

 

[Guyver]

I disagree. You were grafted onto the Olive Tree, so what is the distinction? You've quoted Ephesians above where it states you are now a fellow citizen of Israel.

Please explain what you think the Olive Tree is and how you were grafted in.

I'll be happy to talk about the Olive Tree Doormat, though I don't even see how it's that important - nor do I understand why people want to equate Israel with the Body of Christ. Paul said what he said for a reason.

To me, understanding what it means to be in the Body of Christ is immensely more important than understanding parables about trees.

In Ephesians chapter 1, the scriptures are emphasizing how important it is to be in the Body of Christ; and what blessings are associated with that.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ..."

God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ. Two key points....

1. Has blessed
2. Every spiritual blessing

Galatians 3

"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

In Romans chapter 11, Paul is speaking of wild olive trees, and cultivated trees....the end of the discussion is...

"For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"

"Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

Paul is speaking of the salvation of Gentiles, but mainly emphasizing how God is not finished with Israel. When God makes a promise; you can bet your sweet whatever that he's going to keep it. So, his promise to Abraham, the children of Israel, and to David...are things that he has kept and will keep in the future.

But....do you think that God's plan of salvation was only for Jews and we as Gentiles just happend to catch a lucky break?

It wasn't and we didn't. God wants to save everyone.

John 1:12
John 3:16
1 Timothy 2
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle..."

TBC

 

[Guyver]

Now....to finish with trees and emphasize the distinction between the Body of Christ and the children of Israel.

Psalm 1
"Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night.

He shall be like a tree Planted by the rivers of water, That brings forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also shall not wither; And whatever he does shall prosper."

Trees can be symbolic of those who love and serve the Lord...no doubt.

Now, let's distinguish between the Children of Israel (12 Tribes) and the Body of Christ.

The 12 Tribes were God's chosen people; for a reason. From them, all of the earth would be blessed. The Messiah....Jesus Christ....Son of God...Savior of the World would come through them. God made them promises and kept them as a special people; because he keeps his promises, and to reveal Christ to the world.

But they were not a faithful people. Time and time again, they rejected the Lord, abandoned his ways, killed the prophets, stoned those who were sent to them; and eventually rejected Jesus.

John 1; Speaking of Jesus Christ

"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Who were his own? The Jews were his own. And his own people rejected him. Well guess what....you can't be saved by rejecting Jesus, I don't care who you are.

John 14:6
Acts 4:12

The 12 Tribes of Israel await their coming Messiah.

The Body of Christ has received him. That is the difference.

 

[Doormat]

I'll be happy to talk about the Olive Tree Doormat, though I don't even see how it's that important ...

I'll try and show you why it's important.

In Romans chapter 11, Paul is speaking of wild olive trees, and cultivated trees....the end of the discussion is...

Paul is not making up these ideas. They come from the Old Testament scriptures. Do you know what Paul understood the Olive Tree was based on the scriptures? Judah (Israel).

Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

Are you grafted into that Olive Tree or was Paul mistaken?

Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

Hosea 1:11 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 where he [Christ] stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Israel is the body of Christ; compare Hosea 1:11 to Matthew 2:15 and just believe what it states. Christ is the king of Israel and you are a member of his body. It's simply not logically possible on any level that you and His body are not part of Israel.

Perhaps you mistake ethnic Jews living in nation called "Israel" as the true Israel of prophecy, but it's not. In time Christ will deal with those who call themselves Jews but are not.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

If you have been grafted onto the Olive Tree, as Paul claimed, then you have been grafted onto Israel, which is why Paul called the Ephesians fellow citizens of Israel.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Are you still an alien? If you still are then Paul's words are pointless because he is telling that you were once an alien but no longer are, hence you are a fellow citizen of Israel according to him.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

In context and according to how "household of God" is defined throughout scripture, he means you are part of Israel. I hope that and the Olive Tree convinces you.

 

[godrulz]

So tell us what it is and why.

The gospel relates to the person and work of Jesus Christ. There is only one cross, one Jesus. A gospel not based on His death/resurrection and grace/faith is a false gospel (see Romans; Galatians). Two true NT gospel theories (vs Israel/Church; OT/NT) is a non-starter without precedent apart from modern fads started by Bullinger, Stam, etc. It is a minority view for a reason (few actually see it in Scripture; we are talking essential gospel truth, so it is not something all believers should miss; regardless, it is moot since non-MAD follows Paul and would not accept a Jewish hybrid gospel anyway).

The reason Paul went to Gentiles and others continued to reach Jews, etc. is a pragmatic missionary strategy repeated in all generations with numerous people groups. There is no reason to see multiple gospels/messages in all this vs a missionary strategy to take the gospel to all ethnos/people groups.

This is not rocket science and I really don't understand why thinking people here fall for MAD.:deadhorse: