Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Hi Grosnick,
What is the "Kingdom Gospel"? In other words, when that gospel was being preached what was said? Did belief in that gospel bring salvation?
Thanks!
IS M.A.D. DOCTRINE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?
- Thread starter Grosnick Marowbe
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Hi Grosnick,
What is the "Kingdom Gospel"? In other words, when that gospel was being preached what was said? Did belief in that gospel bring salvation?
Thanks!
SimpleMan77
New member
IS M.A.D. DOCTRINE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?
I can't do a better job explaining this than Paul, so I'll allow him to do it.
Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Fact 1: Jesus came under the law. He would have never been able to reach the first Jew if He didn't come under the law. His death sentence was passed under the law, so Jews would have never been able to fulfill the prophecy that they were going to kill Him if He would not have come under the law. That's why He spoke to the Jews about the law.
Fact 2: He redeemed those that were under the law. If someone is redeemed, they are set free from the debt that binds them to what they are under. His death took away the authority of the law.
Fact 3: Paul, as a Jew speaking to Gentiles, says "that WE (WE!) might receive the adoption of sons". Jews and Gentiles, set free from the law AT THE MOMENT of His death, were freed to be adopted as sons (the vail being rent signified the destruction of the old covenant).
Another verse. Paul, speaking to Jews and Gentiles, says this:
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
The death of Jesus is what freed us from the law. PERIOD. Paul's revelation was a deep understanding of what had happened AT CALVARY, not what had happened mid-way through the book of Acts!!!!!
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I can't do a better job explaining this than Paul, so I'll allow him to do it.
Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Fact 1: Jesus came under the law. He would have never been able to reach the first Jew if He didn't come under the law. His death sentence was passed under the law, so Jews would have never been able to fulfill the prophecy that they were going to kill Him if He would not have come under the law. That's why He spoke to the Jews about the law.
Fact 2: He redeemed those that were under the law. If someone is redeemed, they are set free from the debt that binds them to what they are under. His death took away the authority of the law.
Fact 3: Paul, as a Jew speaking to Gentiles, says "that WE (WE!) might receive the adoption of sons". Jews and Gentiles, set free from the law AT THE MOMENT of His death, were freed to be adopted as sons (the vail being rent signified the destruction of the old covenant).
Another verse. Paul, speaking to Jews and Gentiles, says this:
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
The death of Jesus is what freed us from the law. PERIOD. Paul's revelation was a deep understanding of what had happened AT CALVARY, not what had happened mid-way through the book of Acts!!!!!
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No one was set free from the law until they believed:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
SimpleMan77
New member
IS M.A.D. DOCTRINE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?
You're not addressing my point. Of course it took believing for a Jew to be able to be freed from the law.
But it is WHAT they are believing in, and that is in the work of Calvary.
THE CROSS was the end of the power of the Law. The price was paid there. Peter didn't have to keep the law after Calvary. Jesus broke that fact to them gently - their understanding of it was a process, not an event. One of the biggest steps in that direction was Peter's vision and the conversion of Cornelius.
Paul plainly said any power and dominion the law had ended at Calvary in the verses I posted.
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You're not addressing my point. Of course it took believing for a Jew to be able to be freed from the law.
But it is WHAT they are believing in, and that is in the work of Calvary.
THE CROSS was the end of the power of the Law. The price was paid there. Peter didn't have to keep the law after Calvary. Jesus broke that fact to them gently - their understanding of it was a process, not an event. One of the biggest steps in that direction was Peter's vision and the conversion of Cornelius.
Paul plainly said any power and dominion the law had ended at Calvary in the verses I posted.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is NOT what you said earlier. Here is what you said then:
You said that Jews and Gentiles were set free from the law at the time of the Cross.
But no one is set free from the law until they believe:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
musterion
Well-known member
Odd how they know so much of what the Bible just doesn't say, and are ignorant of many things it does.
SimpleMan77
New member
IS M.A.D. DOCTRINE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?
Gentiles were never under the law, and they didn't need "set free from the law". However, before Calvary, they were "under the law" in the sense that it was their only hope of salvation. At Calvary, before anyone "believed", that rule was changed. After Calvary there was no requirement to accept the law, so Calvary was the moment that Gentiles were "set free from the law".
Jews, however, were under the law before Calvary. After Calvary the law couldn't save anyone - only the Gospel could. So the bondage of the law was broken as soon as Jesus died, but the Jews had to believe before they could accept that.
"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" doesn't mean "if you don't believe you can still be made righteous by the law". It means that when you believe, you understand that Jesus is your righteousness - not the law.
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Gentiles were never under the law, and they didn't need "set free from the law". However, before Calvary, they were "under the law" in the sense that it was their only hope of salvation. At Calvary, before anyone "believed", that rule was changed. After Calvary there was no requirement to accept the law, so Calvary was the moment that Gentiles were "set free from the law".
Jews, however, were under the law before Calvary. After Calvary the law couldn't save anyone - only the Gospel could. So the bondage of the law was broken as soon as Jesus died, but the Jews had to believe before they could accept that.
"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" doesn't mean "if you don't believe you can still be made righteous by the law". It means that when you believe, you understand that Jesus is your righteousness - not the law.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are right that the Gentiles were never under "the law," but they were under the law which is written in their heart, the same law to which the conscience bears witness ( Ro.2:14-15).
So the better translation is this one:
"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
"The law" for the Jews and the law which is written in the heart of the Gentiles, the same law to which the conscience bears witness.
Nevertheless, you were wrong when you said this:
Neither the Jews nor the Gentiles were set free from the law at the time of the Cross. They were not set free until they believed.
SimpleMan77
New member
They were "freed to be free" from the law.
Same as if a spouse died. The death of the spouse frees the other. Until the living spouse believes in the death they are still bound, in their mind, to that spouse. Once they believe it they can go be married to another without defiling their conscience.
The believing isn't what frees them. It is the death. However, believing in the death frees them from the defilement of a guilty conscience, which Paul teaches is paramount to living for God.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
They were not free from the law until they believed. So what you said here in "bold" is in error:
We all make mistakes so why don't you just admit that you made a mistake?
SimpleMan77
New member
I admit mistakes gladly when I make them. However, I'm not wrong here. Repost from above:
Same as if a spouse died. The death of the spouse frees the other. Until the living spouse believes in the death they are still bound, IN THEIR MIND (and by their conscience), to that spouse. Once they believe it they can go be married to another without defiling their conscience.
The believing isn't what frees them. It is the death. However, believing in the death frees them from the defilement of a guilty conscience, which Paul teaches is paramount to living for God.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No one was freed from law until they believed. All you do is cling to your silly teaching despite the evidence from the Bible which proves that you are wrong:
"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
Believers like David were freed from the law (Ro.4:6-7) and that took place many years before the Cross.
SimpleMan77
New member
I feel like this is a rather silly argument. I agree that believing is required, but believing is only effective because of what happened at Calvary.
New agers who "believe" are a dime a dozen in today's society, but because their belief is not in the cross, it only takes them into further bondage
David only received imputed righteousness because the law was given by God with Calvary in mind. Got it essentially gave him an advance on the grace that was going to be poured out at Calvary.
Paul said both that Christ's death at Calvary frees us from the law, and that believing (on the work of Calvary) frees us from the law. I look at that and I take him at his word that both elements are required. You pull out the one about believing, and build your doctrine around it. That's why this is a silly argument.
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Adoption in those passages is not in the sense of taking in someone else's child.
Rather, in the sense of acknowledging one's child is no longer a child, but a son.
As in the Jew's Bar Mitzvah.
And the Law was not written in the Gentile's heart, rather; the WORK OF the Law was.
In other words, the Gentile has "knowledge" is aware, or is conscious of the difference between right and wrong in general.
In contrast, the Jew had a very specific "knowledge" or awareness "of sin...in" or "by the Law" itself.
Rather, in the sense of acknowledging one's child is no longer a child, but a son.
As in the Jew's Bar Mitzvah.
And the Law was not written in the Gentile's heart, rather; the WORK OF the Law was.
In other words, the Gentile has "knowledge" is aware, or is conscious of the difference between right and wrong in general.
In contrast, the Jew had a very specific "knowledge" or awareness "of sin...in" or "by the Law" itself.
You are misusing the verse.
Christ's death ended the law which the righteous had to keep under the law covenant.
The law of faith remains the same, as it always did.
None were ever justified through the works of the law and never shall be forever.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
LA
You are misusing Rom. 9:32.
Because you have failed to understand the end of Rom. 2.
They sought it by the works of the law and not by faith in the sense that they were walking the works of the Law as pleasing men, not from a heart attitude or spirit of pleasing God.
In other words, Pew warmers, so to speak.
No.
They were never justified through keeping the works of the law with the right heart attitude.
None were ever justified through the works of the law, now or in the future.
LA
Hey LA, where ya been? Hope all is well.
And no, that was not what I'd meant.
No one in Scripture is justified by works.
Rather, by faith.
All is not well until Christ returns to fix things which are unfixable until then.
Thanks for asking.
I see Copeland and his churches have joined to the Pope.
LA
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that anyone was.
On the other hand, Jewish unbelievers will be judged by the law in regard to the righteousness needed for salvation:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
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