Matthew 25:31-46
Is God Truly All Powerful?
- Thread starter Ninjashadow
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logos_x
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Mat 25:31 `And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory;
Mat 25:32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
Mat 25:33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Mat 25:35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
Mat 25:36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
Mat 25:38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
Mat 25:39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
Mat 25:42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
Mat 25:43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
Mat 25:44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
Mat 25:45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of these, the least, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Young's Literal Translation
Looking at this parable, don't you notice something peculiar?
The sheep didn't know they were sheep!
And the goats thought they were!
Also..the word translated "punishment" is kolasis
in the greek...which means correction, punishment, penalty. And the related word is kolazō , which means 1)to lop or prune, as trees and wings 2) to curb, check, restrain, and 3) to chastise, correct, punishment, or 4) to cause to be punished.
The word translated as "eternal" is aiōnios, which is the adjective of aiōn, which is translated variously as 1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age. It's literal meaning is "age" or "eon".
Robertson's word studies has this to say...
Eternal punishment (kolasin aiōnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazō, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mōria (vengeance) and kolasis.
Nevertheless...we need to be ever vigilant how we treat "the least, the last, the lost"...because we do so unto Him!
Hope this helps
Stephen
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The parable refers to the judging of NATIONS, not individual salvation, before the Second Coming of Christ. It is not a blanket teaching on OT and NT saints who die having individually received or rejected Christ in eras besides the Great Tribulation leading up to the Second Coming (see context and chronology of Mt. 25; 26).
logos_x
New member
godrulz,
Isn't it amazing how some lump all judgement together and try to apply it all to individuals?
You are correct of course...it even directly says at the beginning of the parable He is talking about all nations being gathered....
You will also notice that they are gathered..and He separates them like a shepherd...
so..the obvious conclusion would be that both the sheep and the goats are HIS!
There are a lot of things in this parable that seems to just float over the heads of most readers..just so they can use it as "proof" of eternal torment as a blanket judgement upon all who don't agree with them.
Isn't it amazing how some lump all judgement together and try to apply it all to individuals?
You are correct of course...it even directly says at the beginning of the parable He is talking about all nations being gathered....
You will also notice that they are gathered..and He separates them like a shepherd...
so..the obvious conclusion would be that both the sheep and the goats are HIS!
There are a lot of things in this parable that seems to just float over the heads of most readers..just so they can use it as "proof" of eternal torment as a blanket judgement upon all who don't agree with them.
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I have a question which has been going on in my head for a while and I would like to get some opinions, some thoughts on this matter, please.
My question is: Can God see the future? Does he know everything that will happen in someone's life, from start to finish?
If he can, than what is the point of creating "bad" people? I mean if he know that this soul will be foreever tormented in hell (or perhaps not forever, seems to me in 2000 years people should at least have agreed on that), but even if hell is just temporary punishment, why create this soul in the first place?
If God KNEW that this person would kill or hurt other people?
Furthermore, if we each have a destiny, than saying we have free will is kind of pointless isn't it? If I were to tell someone: Listen, in about 3 years from now something is going to happen to you and you will kill 10 people.
They'll say, no way, that can't be me. But ofcourse, it's your destiny. NOTHING you do, even knowing what I've just told you, will change that. It's your future, it's your only future because that's what God has seen. And God cannot be wrong.
So this is all very confusing........
My question is: Can God see the future? Does he know everything that will happen in someone's life, from start to finish?
If he can, than what is the point of creating "bad" people? I mean if he know that this soul will be foreever tormented in hell (or perhaps not forever, seems to me in 2000 years people should at least have agreed on that), but even if hell is just temporary punishment, why create this soul in the first place?
If God KNEW that this person would kill or hurt other people?
Furthermore, if we each have a destiny, than saying we have free will is kind of pointless isn't it? If I were to tell someone: Listen, in about 3 years from now something is going to happen to you and you will kill 10 people.
They'll say, no way, that can't be me. But ofcourse, it's your destiny. NOTHING you do, even knowing what I've just told you, will change that. It's your future, it's your only future because that's what God has seen. And God cannot be wrong.
So this is all very confusing........
Caledvwlch
New member
To suggest that God does not exist outside of time is to suggest that he is bound by his own creation. He's not bound by the physical or spiritual aspects of his creation, why should he be bound by the temporal?godrulz said:
Caledvwlch
New member
I have no trouble subscribing to the "ever-present now" theory. As temporal beings, it's difficult for us to comprehend, but if God created time (we can all agree on that, right?), I see no reason that he would constrain himself within his own creation.
Caledvwlch
New member
As far as omnipotence goes, this is the old "Can God make a rock so big that He can't even lift it?" scenario. And any discussion I've ever had to this effect leads to the idea that God simply doesn't do things that God doesn't do. Or in otherwords, God is bound by His own nature.
Caledvwlch
New member
Who says the timeline isn't already exactly to his liking? Or if it isn't who says he doesn't routinely change it and just make the changes unnoticeable to us, his worthless, worm-like creatures?logos_x said:
Caledvwlch said:
You are still confusing time with a place or a thing. Time is an aspect of any personal being's existence (succession, duration, sequence). God is NOT bound by space nor time. He is infinite and can be in more than one place at one time and do more than one thing at a time. The reason time is a limitation for us is that we are finite, limited, and mortal on earth. God is uncreated and experiences an everlasting duration of time. Timelessness is incoherent. Time is not a limitation for God, but He does not have to be 'outside' it for that to be true. Will, intellect, emotions require time to be experienced. God is dynamic, not static. Just because He experiences personal attributes and relations in sequence (time), it is not a limitation on Him, is it?
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Caledvwlch said:
Speculation that has a simpler explanation: God is not timeless. The past is fixed, the present is reality, the future is not yet. Time is unidirectional. The timeline of everlasting duration is still moving into the blank future.
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Agape4Robin
Member
Rep points for you!!! :BRAVO:godrulz said:
Humanoid said:I have a question which has been going on in my head for a while and I would like to get some opinions, some thoughts on this matter, please.
My question is: Can God see the future? Does he know everything that will happen in someone's life, from start to finish?
If he can, than what is the point of creating "bad" people? I mean if he know that this soul will be foreever tormented in hell (or perhaps not forever, seems to me in 2000 years people should at least have agreed on that), but even if hell is just temporary punishment, why create this soul in the first place?
If God KNEW that this person would kill or hurt other people?
Furthermore, if we each have a destiny, than saying we have free will is kind of pointless isn't it? If I were to tell someone: Listen, in about 3 years from now something is going to happen to you and you will kill 10 people.
They'll say, no way, that can't be me. But ofcourse, it's your destiny. NOTHING you do, even knowing what I've just told you, will change that. It's your future, it's your only future because that's what God has seen. And God cannot be wrong.
So this is all very confusing........
I struggled with the same confusing thoughts years ago. When I found an alternate view to the classic timeless, 'eternal now' view, things became clear. There are several threads here that have explored these issues (Open Theism).
The future is not there to 'see'. Time and history is unidirectional, moving from the potential future into the fixed past through the present moment. The film is not already made. The future is not fixed, but is mostly unsettled and open. Determinism/fatalism wrongly assumes a closed future.
God knows the possibilities of our lives, but He correctly sees them as potential, not actual or certain before many moral and mundane choices are made (free moral agency; self-determination). He knows all that is logically knowable. Exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies (may or may not happen) is an absurdity or logical contradiction.
God knows some of the future as certain and settled. These are the things He will bring to pass by His ability (not foreknowledge) regardless of our choices (see Is. 46; 48, etc.) e.g. First and Second Coming of Christ; future judgments in Revelation, etc. These do not necessarily include every detail (like where a bird will fly in 5 years). He can bring His purposes to pass creatively and responsively without controlling details.
If God knew for certain every detail, it does lead to apathy, confusion, no responsibility/accountability, etc. It becomes like a weird back to the future sci-fi movie that does not make rational sense. This is why time travel is absurd. The future is not yet and the past is fixed.
Determinism would make God responsible for heinous evil, which would be contrary to His revelation and character. We would not have genuine freedom (image of God) and would be mere robots.
Change would be impossible if the future was fixed and known. Your questions would continue to be perplexing and irrational.
So, the key to clear the cobwebs is to recognize that God is not timeless. Time is unidirectional and is succession, sequence, duration. The future is not yet, and thus is not knowable. Some of the future is settled, but much of the future is open (especially relating to free choices).
Every day is an exciting adventure for God and us. What we do or do not do (prayer, evangelism, social responsibility, etc.) can and does make a difference. Fatalism is a Muslim concept. Unfortunately, Calvinism falls into the same trap (though trying to claim we have free will...logically we do not in a deterministic system).
God did not create bad people. He created man with the potential to chose good or evil. Lucifer became Satan. Adam fell. God did not desire nor cause this.
Modal logic (necessities, certainties, possibilities, probabilities) and quantum mechanics (chaos; random) are relevant to these issues.
Caledvwlch said:
This is another wrong assumption. Time was not created, because it is not a thing. Our measure of time by the sun, moon, stars, clocks, etc. are unique to creation, but succession/sequence/duration predated creation. The triune God experiences sequence from everlasting to everlasting. He would not have will, intellect, emotions if He was timeless, whatever that means.
Time is not a constraint for God. The reason the Bible shows God experiencing His Story is that He is a covenantal, relational God, not a removed Deist entity. A timeless being would not relate or experience.
Caledvwlch said:
The problem is not with God. This is a mutually exclusive, logical contradiction, absurdity. The problem is with the illogical question, not with God. It is like saying: Can God make 2+2=4 and 2+2= 10 at the same time? This is not a limitation on omnipotence, but a stupid question.
godrulz, thank you very much for your post! This is what I've been telling myself also. It is totally illogical to speak of free will and destiny at the same time.
So let me see if I got this right. We now have three "beliefs":
A. God IS omnipotent and knows exactly who will end up in hell, and they will suffer there eternally.
B. God IS omnipotent and knows exactly who will end up in hell, and they will suffer temporarily, and from time to time will have a chance for a new "appeal".
C. God is NOT omnipotent, doesn't really know who will end up in hell, but the ones that do will suffer there eternally.
D. God is NOT omnipotent, doesn't really know who will end up in hell, the ones that do will from time to time have a chance for a new "appeal".
I think I summized all of the beliefs there?
Well, it seems to me that the only option where God is good and we have free will is option D. But it still looks in my eyes as greatly irresponsible. I mean surely in his vast wisdom he would have thought of the possibility of creating such people as Hitler, Stalin.....
Can't good exist without evil?
So let me see if I got this right. We now have three "beliefs":
A. God IS omnipotent and knows exactly who will end up in hell, and they will suffer there eternally.
B. God IS omnipotent and knows exactly who will end up in hell, and they will suffer temporarily, and from time to time will have a chance for a new "appeal".
C. God is NOT omnipotent, doesn't really know who will end up in hell, but the ones that do will suffer there eternally.
D. God is NOT omnipotent, doesn't really know who will end up in hell, the ones that do will from time to time have a chance for a new "appeal".
I think I summized all of the beliefs there?
Well, it seems to me that the only option where God is good and we have free will is option D. But it still looks in my eyes as greatly irresponsible. I mean surely in his vast wisdom he would have thought of the possibility of creating such people as Hitler, Stalin.....
Can't good exist without evil?
Humanoid said:
Omnipotent= all-powerful (this does not mean God does the logically impossible nor that He does all that can possibly be done all the time).
Omniscient= knows all that is knowable.
The only way for good and love to exist without selfishness and evil is to create robots who do not have choice. The possibility of love implies the equal possibility of evil. It is not necessary, but it is very possible.
God did not create Hitler or Stalin. They were born as innocent babies without moral or mental capacity until they grew. They created themselves through their own evil choices. They did not have to become what they became. They rejected God and suffered the consequences.
In the beginning, God said creation was 'very good.' It was perfect. The Fall of man through rebellion changed it to the point God regretted making man.
Option D sounds sentimental but denies God's power and justice. The Bible (OPTION E) affirms that God is all-powerful, but created other free moral agents with the possibility of love or hate. Because some men chose to rebel against God's holiness, the consequence is separation from Him for eternity. There are no second chances. He did not know for sure who would end up in hell even before they existed. Once they died and fixed their destiny, He would know for certain that they were in hell (some people repent and trust Christ in their last breath).
God demonstrates His love and goodness by coming in the person of Jesus Christ to die for us. This satisfies His love, justice, and mercy. It retains our free wills in that we may receive or reject Christ. He voluntarily limited His power by giving us genuine freedom (i.e. He does not control every moral and mundane choice in the universe). God remains perfect and good and all-powerful even if we do not meet the conditions of appropriating HIs perfect provision (repentant faith in Christ and His finished work).
Summary: God is good; God is all-powerful, but is not the only free moral agent in the universe (He voluntarily limits His sheer power and does not always exercise His potential power); man is a free moral agent; if they reject Him, they suffer the consequences forever. This is not God's fault. He died for us, so we must now live for Him instead of Self. We are without excuse if we reject His love; He remains perfect whether we serve Him or not.
