No one "becomes" godless. If one is godless they were always godless. If anyone is not saved now, they were never saved. And if they were saved before, they are saved now.godrulz said:
Is God Truly All Powerful?
- Thread starter Ninjashadow
- Start date
lighthouse said:
Does not compute.
You and I were once godless. We are godly in Him now. I think this is your second logical fallacy of non-sequitur...your conclusion does not really follow the premise. You use circular reasoning and begging the question to prove what you assume. This is my humble opinion and assessment based on all relevant verses, not just proof texts.
When I came to TOL, less than two years ago, I believed exactly what you do. I was proven wrong by what is in Scripture. When I believed the complete opposite. I assume nothing.godrulz said:
God_Is_Truth
New member
godrulz said:
if there is a risk of someone losing salvation after conversion, isn't it in their best interest to be killed immediately after they believe to ensure they go to heaven and don't become apostate?
Ninjashadow
New member
So, godrulz, are you saying that one can lose their salvation?
God_Is_Truth said:
Along the same line of reasoning, is it not better for God to not create so no one goes to hell forever, or for God to kill all children before they have moral and mental capacity to reject Him?
There is no need for anyone to not be saved or to continue to be saved once they are saved. His grace is sufficient. Unfortunately, the heart of man is fickle and selfish rebellion can undermine the ministry of the Spirit to initially save or forever keep someone.
In God's wisdom, the risk must have been worth it to create us and to not coerce salvation initially or in the end. God's love, truth, holiness, justice, mercy, etc. come into play. The alternative was to create robots, not free moral agents. I do not perceive we lose free moral agency once we are saved. Israel, the people of God, rebelled. Not all in Israel were saved in the end. Some were seduced by pagan nations. Not everyone who started to follow Jesus, kept following Jesus.
God's purpose in saving us goes beyond a ticket to heaven. There is a life to live and a purpose in His kingdom. To kill us off at conversion would violate His character and ways. Love without testing is sentimental. God is a calculated risk taker. He does not have to control the outcome to remain sovereign or good. If we fall away, it is strictly our fault and was unnecessary and the height of selfish stupidity. It is not an isolated lapse. It is a progressive, final, defiant renunciation against great light.
Most of us know of people who we did not doubt their salvation for years. They may even be family members. Some are now far from God. Many will return to Him, but not all will. If someone who once served God renounces Christianity and becomes a gay Satan worshipper (possible), then if they persist in this state, I see no logical or biblical reason why they might not have been saved in the past or why they should be called saved now just because they were in the past.
ninjashadow said:
Salvation is not a thing to lose. I am saying, because Scripture teaches it, that it is possible to renounce Christ and return to Judaism (or become a JW, Mormon, or Muslim, or agnostic or atheist) or to apostasize (falling from truth, by definition) or fall away. Since salvation is relational and not metaphysical (substance, thing), it is possible to rebel to the point of no longer being in relation with God. If one returns to trusting the shadow/type (Judaism) after once being a Christian, then that person is now under the wrath of God again. Their state has changed, just as it did at conversion. It is a two way street. God judges on present and final reality vs the distant past (they may or may not be the same reality depending on subsequent choices).
Hebrews 6:4-6 (I do not negate the principles of the verse based on Mid-Acts or supposed non-Pauline arguments...similar concepts can be found in Pauline writings).
God_Is_Truth
New member
godrulz said:
no, it is better to have some go to heaven and some go to hell than to have none go to heaven and none go to hell.
no, that was our old self which was crucified. we are a new creation in Christ. any sin done by us does not come from our true self, but from the flesh, the part of us cut off when God circumcised our hearts and made us anew.
at the risk of eternal hell?
i was not suggesting that God himself should do it.
that is naive. there is spiritual warfare to consider. people to not just suddenly given in to sin randomly. the devil is always at work, looking to get us to fall, searching to pick us off when we are weak. we ourselves are new creations in Christ, we have nothing in us to lead us astray. we are led astray by the flesh (our old self), the world, and the devil.
but salvation does not depend on us, so even if we rebel, we cannot cut ourselves off from God. salvation is of the Lord.
because salvation is of the Lord, not man. since we don't save ourselves, why should we think we can un-save ourselves?
If salvation is all of the Lord, one would expect everyone to be saved since love is impartial. Not all men are saved. There are conditions and a response necessary on man's part. Salvation is not unilateral nor foisted on us. The type of repentant faith that allows us to appropriate His perfect provision is one that is continuous, not a punctiliar act in the past alone. Continuance in the faith/abiding/persevering, etc. are principles in Scripture subsequent to initial conversion. We do not do this in our own strength, but our wills and minds are not destroyed at conversion. Even the new millennial saints (born after the second coming) are tested at the end with some failing and falling away. The GWT judgment in Revelation implies some of these will not have their names written in the book of life. Other verses in Revelation imply that one's name can be erased from the Book.
godrulz,
We are not saved because we have a relationship with God; we have a relationship with God because we are saved. We are saved because we heard the gospel and believed it (Rom. 10:9-10). We are saved by HIS grace through faith, period. The relationship comes after and is based upon that same grace which saved us in the first place.
We are identified in Christ. When God looks at us He sees His Son because we are hid in Him. I would really like to know just what it is you think we could do to improve upon or enhance or maintain such a position/relationship. You have been declared to be a son of the living God because you believed, you are a member of His very family; a prince of heaven if you will. How could you ever maintain that, and if you could, how would you then propose to call it a free gift of grace?
No, my freind; you are sorely in error. You are drowning in a sea of legalism that you can't even tell your in. You must repent of this. You're like a grape trying its best to choke off the vine which feeds it! Why do that? I don't get it.
Resting in Him,
Clete
We are not saved because we have a relationship with God; we have a relationship with God because we are saved. We are saved because we heard the gospel and believed it (Rom. 10:9-10). We are saved by HIS grace through faith, period. The relationship comes after and is based upon that same grace which saved us in the first place.
We are identified in Christ. When God looks at us He sees His Son because we are hid in Him. I would really like to know just what it is you think we could do to improve upon or enhance or maintain such a position/relationship. You have been declared to be a son of the living God because you believed, you are a member of His very family; a prince of heaven if you will. How could you ever maintain that, and if you could, how would you then propose to call it a free gift of grace?
No, my freind; you are sorely in error. You are drowning in a sea of legalism that you can't even tell your in. You must repent of this. You're like a grape trying its best to choke off the vine which feeds it! Why do that? I don't get it.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete said:
As long as we are in Christ and abiding we are in relationship with Him. I agree with the gist of your post, but take the warnings about apostasy and falling away seriously. You compartmentalize them with Mid-Acts. You can see how those in the OT could renounce their faith and become unbelieves, but you think it is literally impossible for a NT person to change their minds, wills, and status. What you say is true if we are in the light as He is in the light. If we renounce Christ and return to a lie, we are in darkness, and no longer in relationship with Him. You can understand how divorce severs a human relationship, yet you cannot understand how renunciation and rebellion to the end does not change our status.
Wesley disagree with the Calvinists on the nature of imputed righteousness. Your stance is similar to the positional, objective view of imputation by the Calvinists (though you come at it from a different angle). This has some merit, but Wesley rightly recognized that when God justifies us and treats us as IF we never sinned (judicial based on a substitute for the penalty), there should also be a practical working out of this. There is a subjective side to imputed righteousness. It is disingenuous to say someone is a believer when they later revert to unbelief and live just as they did before Christ. They now chose to hate God or reject the sacrifice of Christ (possible if we have free moral agency, before or after conversion), and live as if God does not exist (whether they still believe he exists or not). Past belief does not secure future belief if the reality is actually unbelief now. Believers are secure in Christ and share His promises. Unbelievers (whether they ever trusted or not in the past) are under His wrath. Sanctification cannot be divorced from justification or glorification. It is possible to walk with God and then turn away forever. Lucifer is a classic example. Saying he was not a born again Christian misses the fundamental nature of free moral agency, love, relationship, reality, etc. Different dispensations do not make one lucky enough to still be saved while hating God just because one once loved God.
God_Is_Truth
New member
godrulz said:
salvation IS all of God, but some choose to reject it. those who are saved are saved because they have reached out and taken what God has freely given them. we ask for forgiveness, God gives it. we do not earn salvation, not in any way, shape or form. salvation is all of God, but only done when we ask for it. if we do not ask, it is not done. but salvation is totally, completely and utterly all of God.
I believed that salvation could be lost. I believed that someone could be saved, then become an atheist. I beleived that someone could reject Christ. The Bible does not teach that.godrulz said:You may have generally believed what I do, but I doubt it was exactly what I believe. I do not even believe exactly what I believe
God_Is_Truth said:
I basically agree with this. Salvation is of God, but you also recognize the human response involved. Reconciliation involves two parties. God provides, initiates, draws, transforms, etc., but we are also in the picture and can receive or reject Christ.
God_Is_Truth
New member
godrulz said:
reconciliation is an aspect of salvation, but not the totality of it. there is also redemption, new creation, spiritual circumcision, baptism of the holy spirit etc. it is much more than being reconciled, though reconciliation is i'd say the first step of the rest.
God_Is_Truth said:
There are various descriptions and aspects of salvation. I do not believe they preclude conditional vs unconditional eternal security.
e.g. 'born again' and 'redemption' are metaphors for salvation. Spriritual and physical birth are not identical and analagous in every sense. Redemption is an illustration from the first century, but should not lead us to the Commercial Transaction Theory/literal payment view of the atonement.
allsmiles said:
God, and God alone. He provides salvation and initiates reconciliation. His grace and death/resurrection of Christ is the reason for salvation (grounds). This does not negate our response of repentant faith and continuing in the faith (conditions=not without which). Unless you buy into TULIP, God's grace and will is resistible. Not all men are saved because of free moral agency, not a lack in God's desires and provision.