Is God temporal or atemporal?

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

It IS because of Calvinism.

Calvinism's basic premis is that God cannot change. Proceeding through time would blow that idea to smitherines.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I won't subscribe to an opinion on this, one way or the other, based on someone elses theology, good or bad. I can't help but feel that making God temporal somehow implies a beginning or an end to Him. When both Christ and God say that They are the "Alpha and the Omega", I assume that They are referring to the fact that They initiated the making of this world, and will also end it in favor of the eternal kingdom of heaven on earth. On the flip side, if They are not subject to time, how and "when" did They decide to make the earth? From now on, I am going to refer to us being in "time", and Them in "Time". We get temporary time, where things start and stop, and they get Eternal Time, which is linear but knows no beginnings or endings. One has the infinite presence of the Holy Spirit, the other one gets entropy.

Of course, my naming it doesn't change it or explain, but it makes me feel better.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Balder

An unchanging God could not create anything, could He?

But how could something infinite change? Which is to say, if He is unlimited how does He take on new aspects?

I don't absolutely subscribe to the above idea, but the question is there.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

But how could something infinite change? Which is to say, if He is unlimited how does He take on new aspects?

I don't absolutely subscribe to the above idea, but the question is there.

Your question seems non-sequitur. Why wouldn't something that was infinite change?

What do you mean by infinite?

I forget who originally asked the following question but I think perhaps it will be appropriate here...

"A flame (a candle flame for example), obviously it is the same flame from one moment to the next, yet it is alive with change, does that make it a different flame?"

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Your question seems non-sequitur. Why wouldn't something that was infinite change?

What do you mean by infinite?

I forget who originally asked the following question but I think perhaps it will be appropriate here...

"A flame (a candle flame for example), obviously it is the same flame from one moment to the next, yet it is alive with change, does that make it a different flame?"

Inifinite is without boundaries. Where would it get something new? Or how could it lose something, where would it go?

A flame is fed by evolving a substance in a combustion reaction, which means it needs a source. What is the source of God? Technically, a flame is always new, until it runs out of flammables.

Once again, though, we are dealing something far out of our league, as far as full comprehension goes. Mostly, I am making conversation.

 

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

It IS because of Calvinism.

Calvinism's basic premis is that God cannot change. Proceeding through time would blow that idea to smitherines.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I don't know. In my mind if God changed he would cease to be the Christian God. God created the laws of christianity and he above all must keep them or else they would be meaningless. If he changed the laws he has given us, Christianity would be meaningless.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

I don't know. In my mind if God changed he would cease to be the Christian God. God created the laws of christianity and he above all must keep them or else they would be meaningless. If he changed the laws he has given us, Christianity would be meaningless.

To my mind (which does not mean much), the "laws" you refer to are the characteristics of Gods righteousness. If indeed, God were to change in character (which Christ, in several different way, says is impossible), christianity would be meaningless. My fear and trust of the Lord is based in my faith of His unwavering righteousness. He is absolutely trustworthy, and therefore, absolutely unwavering in His character.

Does that leave room for change? If He is "slave" to His own character (I am stealing a little from my friend Lightson), than He is limited. If He is limited, He may be subject to time. Hence, there may be parts of Him that can change.

Hows that for circular reasoning? I managed to paint myself into corner and had to knock the wall out to get free. Your turn.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

I don't know. In my mind if God changed he would cease to be the Christian God. God created the laws of christianity and he above all must keep them or else they would be meaningless. If he changed the laws he has given us, Christianity would be meaningless.

lost anomaly,
Clete, God_Is_Truth, and I are not suggesting that God's righteous and holy character changes.

Righteousness does not change. God does not arbitrarily decree what is right and what is wrong. God could not change his mind and decide that rape is right.

However, our God is not a stone idol. He is the Living God, and even perfect living things change. Our God is relational. He chose to give His man true free will, and God is able to respond to His creation's choices, decisions, and actions.

Would you like a couple examples of God changing in some ways (while maintaining his righteous and holy character)? Or better yet, can you think of any examples?

 

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

To my mind (which does not mean much), the "laws" you refer to are the characteristics of Gods righteousness. If indeed, God were to change in character (which Christ, in several different way, says is impossible), christianity would be meaningless. My fear and trust of the Lord is based in my faith of His unwavering righteousness. He is absolutely trustworthy, and therefore, absolutely unwavering in His character.

Does that leave room for change? If He is "slave" to His own character (I am stealing a little from my friend Lightson), than He is limited. If He is limited, He may be subject to time. Hence, there may be parts of Him that can change.

Unless time is just a duration that has no end, therefore not limiting Him. Does that make sense?

Hows that for circular reasoning? I managed to paint myself into corner and had to knock the wall out to get free. Your turn.

I've already done that.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

Unless time is just a duration that has no end, therefore not limiting Him. Does that make sense?

:up:

 

[Lovejoy]

Quote:
Unless time is just a duration that has no end, therefore not limiting Him. Does that make sense?

All things are made new at some point, excepting the Almighty Himself. The problem with time is that is seems to be mutable, such as dilation at light speed. I know that there are people doing crazy things with it now, dinking with light beams traveling through absolute zero temperatures (ever seen light travel, I mean slow it down until it is visible? They can do that now.) If it is mutable, than it exists. If it exists, than it will change with the crashing boom of the heavens and the earth. No, I am back to thinking that the time we see here is just an analog of the Time we will see there, just like everything else around here. I know that is still not helpful, sorry.

 

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

No, I am back to thinking that the time we see here is just an analog of the Time we will see there, just like everything else around here. I know that is still not helpful, sorry.

But is it an analog of what God sees? That's the key.

Is it possible God's perception of time is different then our own? After all I'm sure if we wanted to we could put 62 seconds in a minute if we wanted to. After all aren't we the ones who institued the system of marking the duration of time?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

Where we are parting ways simply has to do with how we see time. I look at it as being a part of entropy, and he gets tossed into the the lake of fire with satan. You are more focused on the linearity of time, which does not go for sure. Linearity is not evil or part of the flesh as far as I know, so there is no reason for it to not continue.

Do you believe that entropy is a result of the Fall?

For that matter, light is going bye-bye in the next world, to be replaced by the Light of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, light won't go bye-bye, but our main source of light will change (as you pointed out).

This distiction reminds me of a problem that often arises when discussing God and time. Sometimes people confuse methods of measuring time with time itself.

For instance, Genesis 1 states that God created the sun, the moon, and the stars to divide the day and the night, for seasons, etc. So He created means of measuring the passage of time, but He did not create time itself. In fact these means for tracking time were created on the fourth day of creation.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

But is it an analog of what God sees? That's the key.

Is it possible God's perception of time is different then our own? After all I'm sure if we wanted to we could put 62 seconds in a minute if we wanted to. After all aren't we the ones who institued the system of marking the duration of time?

When I say analog, I am just leaping into purely speculative space. No facts to burden me, buddy. What I mean is, what we have here is just a version of what God deals with. Since He can foretell all (His prophecy does not fail) I assume that we were built around a finite time, rather, a time that is limited in duration and variability. His, I imagine, is not. Ours seems to limit our options. I can't imagine His doing that.

As far as putting 62 seconds into anything, I sure we could. But I am not talking about clocks. I am talking about entropy, mutability, and linearity. Mostly, I want to know what the heck we are going to be dealing with after New Jerusalem. I think this thread was started to deal with a doctrinal issue, though. I am stepping on toes, I fear, and have drug things off subject.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Turbo

Do you believe that entropy is a result of the Fall?

Actually, light won't go bye-bye, but our main source of light will change (as you pointed out).

This distiction reminds me of a problem that often arises when discussing God and time. Sometimes people confuse methods of measuring time with time itself.

For instance, Genesis 1 states that God created the sun, the moon, and the stars to divide the day and the night, for seasons, etc. So He created means of measuring the passage of time, but He did not create time itself. In fact these means for tracking time were created on the fourth day of creation.

This is where things get weird. I think that the Light of the Spirit is something other than light (useless, I know, but I am picky, picky, picky), rather it is a spiritual clarity that will guide us. Our light is subject to heat and gravity. I don't "see" that with the light of the Spirit. But that is just silly speculation that makes the day go by.

Entropy is so tied to death, and death goes I am sure. That is in Revelation. What made the world go round before the fall? I think entropy was just waiting outside the Garden, held off by Gods presence. Perhaps that is a good case for the exisitence of capital T Time.

How do we seperate time from subjectivity? He created things in the first day, and then invented days later? Very tough. We are still stuck between linearity and immutability. You say things still go in a row after the New, I agree. Is this time? I don't know.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

But is it an analog of what God sees? That's the key.

Is it possible God's perception of time is different then our own? After all I'm sure if we wanted to we could put 62 seconds in a minute if we wanted to. After all aren't we the ones who institued the system of marking the duration of time?

• But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9

Since God is all knowing and all powerful, there is no limit to what he can accomplish in an instant. And since He is eternal, He can work and plan on a much longer timetable than we do in our short lives. In that way, "God's perception of time" is quite a bit different than ours. But He still exists in time just like the rest of reality.

It might be somewhat analogous to the differences between the way a young child and an older adult perceive time. To a four-year-old, a year seems like forever. It is a great percentage of his life. But to an older adult, the years just seem to fly by. The difference becomes especially apparent in the fall. To the child, it seems like Christmas will never get here. Meanwhile, the adult can't believe that Christmas is coming up so quickly. "It seems like it was just here!"

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Turbo

• But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9

Since God is all knowing and all powerful, there is no limit to what he can accomplish in an instant. And since He is eternal, He can work and plan on a much longer timetable than we do in our short lives. In that way, "God's perception of time" is quite a bit different than ours. But He still exists in time just like the rest of reality.

It might be somewhat analogous to the differences between the way a young child and an older adult perceive time. To a four-year-old, a year seems like forever. It is a great percentage of his life. But to an older adult, the years just seem to fly by. The difference becomes especially apparent in the fall. To the child, it seems like Christmas will never get here. Meanwhile, the adult can't believe that Christmas is coming up so quickly. "It seems like it was just here!"

Einstein as Christian apologist? Why not, it is relevant to the issue. God invented relativity for us, didn't He. Perhaps that is the only difference. Good thinking.

 

[Turbo]

I think Einstein was among those who confused the measurement (or perception) of time for time itself.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Turbo

I think Einstein was among those who confused the measurement (or perception) of time for time itself.

This is a good point.
Einstein said that time slowed with increased speed. But actually there is no way to tell if it is time itself that has changed or if it is the instruments with which we measure time that have changed. A temporal change is fundamentally immeasurable because we have nothing to measure it by except by what physical changes have occurred. So there is no way to say for sure that anything is going on outside of what we can see physically. In other words, if someone doesn't age as quickly as someone else, is it because time has slowed down for them or because they are physically different in some way? If you say, as Einstein did, that it is the former, then you have no way of proving it which Einstein himself readily admitted. He was convinced that time itself was changed primarily because of the eloquence of the mathematics involved not by any experimental evidence or proof.

Great discussion, by the way!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[geoff]

I would say that God is OMNItemporal.

That is, He is both IN and OUT of time.


The essence of God is timeless, outside and apart from time.
The Trinity is the manifestation of God inside in time, in order that he might interact with His creation.

and of course, I am always right

and extremely modest.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by geoff

I would say that God is OMNItemporal.

That is, He is both IN and OUT of time.


The essence of God is timeless, outside and apart from time.
The Trinity is the manifestation of God inside in time, in order that he might interact with His creation.

and of course, I am always right

and extremely modest.

Have any Scripture to back this sort of an idea up with?

I have a t-shirt that says...
"I'm not opinionated, I'm just always right!"
The shirt fits me quite well!

Resting in Him,
Clete