Is God temporal or atemporal?

[Clete]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Uh, well, I like the way GIT and I are conversing. Why do we have to play by your rules?

You don't. You have free-will, exercise it.

I'm just asking a question, no one is saying you have to answer if you choose not to, and if even you did answer my question, there is no requirement to end the parallel conversation with GIT.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

but you see, i don't believe time to be a created thing. i don't see it as a thing at all. it's just a concept. it's duration. it's not something one "makes" at all. so i don't hold that God is the author of time.

I like you defintion of time in that it is a concept. I completely agree.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

To us, time is a nescessity to create anything. To God it isn't. Why do you say God cannot act outside of time? You say God is omniscient. Then He must have to exist also in a different realm in order to make provisions for the future.

why can't God act outside of time?-there's nothing to act outside of. it's impossible to be outside of something that doesn't exist, no matter how powerful you are.

hmm. why must he exist sometime else to make provision for the future? why couldn't he make provision for every possible future back all the way at creation?

Correct. It was God's free will to love Jacob and hate Esau. The wind blows where it pleases.

well remember that Paul was using Jacob and Esau in reference to whom the messiah's line would be through, not about who got saved and who didn't.

and yes, i agree the wind most certainly blows wherever it pleases.

It does not do God any justice to define His Sovereignty by a dictionary reference.

could you show me where the bible defines sovereign as "in control of all things"?

A difference? No. God has written the script. Now, it is just playing itself out.

i see a big difference between "in control of all things" and "controlling all things". i can be "in control" of a situation withough "controlling everything in the situation". my power or authority would could guaruntee things going as i wanted them to go but that wouldn't mean i need to control every aspect of what went on in the situation.

can you see the difference?

I think you have to understand the fall of man before you jump to these conclusions. Man is utterly wicked anyway. Pharoah was raised to power so that God would show His power by destroying the Egyptian armies. And what about Judas? He played his part in the handing over of Jesus, just like Jesus had foretold. Judas was a disciple, but obviously not one of the elect.

while i don't think God raised pharaoh solely for destroying the Egyptian armies, it's certainly a reason. Judas was certainly not one of the elect shown be the verse in John which says Satan entered him. i don't believe Satan can enter the elect.

God bless.

God_Is_Truth

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

but you see, i don't believe time to be a created thing. i don't see it as a thing at all. it's just a concept. it's duration. it's not something one "makes" at all. so i don't hold that God is the author of time.

i'm curious as to what you are saying about the trinity though. are you saying that God wasn't always a trinity? or just in reference to the incarnation?

i also hold that God chose us from the beginning. but the difference is that i believe the "us" is a group of people and unspecific. in other words, God chose this group of people, whoever ends up being in the group, for salvation from the beginning. i believe the group was chosen, but not who makes up the group.

but i don't see how any of this would make God any less sovereign.

In an effort to be unhelpful, which really isn't much work for me, I would state that if time is not a created thing, then our ability to relate to it is. If it is an aspect of God (He is linear and, as such, so are we), then it is an aspect that we work with for less ably then He. If that is true, then we can only understand this aspect as well as He allows us, just as we only come to Him under His terms. What, then, are our chances of coming to any kind of real conclusion here?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

In an effort to be unhelpful, which really isn't much work for me, I would state that if time is not a created thing, then our ability to relate to it is. If it is an aspect of God (He is linear and, as such, so are we), then it is an aspect that we work with for less ably then He. If that is true, then we can only understand this aspect as well as He allows us, just as we only come to Him under His terms. What, then, are our chances of coming to any kind of real conclusion here?

well, the question i guess that comes to mind for me is this: do we think God would purposely hide some of how reality is from us? or would he make things look one way and in reality be another?

perhaps. but i look at scripture, and the way i perceive things around me and base my conclusions off that; first scripture, then reality.

but in the end, everything could be completely wrong. but i don't believe God has done that.

hope that helps.

God Bless.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

well, the question i guess that comes to mind for me is this: do we think God would purposely hide some of how reality is from us? or would he make things look one way and in reality be another?

perhaps. but i look at scripture, and the way i perceive things around me and base my conclusions off that; first scripture, then reality.

but in the end, everything could be completely wrong. but i don't believe God has done that.

hope that helps.

God Bless.

I will concur that what we can glean from scripture has to be true, if it of the Holy Spirits prompting. However, I wonder if we are given the faculties to understand it all? Would full comprehension preclude faith? Nonetheless, what is being determined here is something that is very scriptural, and needed, so I would say that some part of it has to be knowable. My question was mostly meant as an idea teaser. My next question would be: did Calvin have enough knowledge to establish his opinion on Gods relation to time?

 

[Clete]

Alrighty then, If you don't wish to answer my on topic question, then lets discuss your off topic signature.

You quote me as saying...

"ALL PEOPLE, that is you and me and everyone else is damned to hell apart from faith is Christ, homo's included. People who commit the crime of having sex with a person of the same gender should be executed. If they repent and accept Christ before their execution has been carried out then they will be saved just as the thief on the cross was but that doesn't mean that their sentence should not still be carried out."

A quote, by the way, that I not only acknowledge as mine but that I stand behind and proudly so on the basis of scripture.

You think that I am an idiot for saying such a thing?
Well, let’s find out who the idiot is!

Do you support the execution of murderers?
Would you support the execution of someone who molested your daughter?
How about a man who raped your wife, would you let him go or would rather see him justly executed?

And here is the most important question...

On what do you base your answers to these questions?

Don't you dare say the Bible! Because the same One who said execute murders also said to execute homosexuals. The same One who said to execute rapists also said to execute adulterers. The same One who said to execute those who have sex with animals also said to execute those who would rape your child.
An eye for eye was God's idea, not mine. If you don't like it take it up with Him, but personally, I think that makes you the idiot.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
animals also said to execute those who would rape your child.
An eye for eye was God's idea, not mine. If you don't like it take it up with Him, but I personally think that makes you the idiot.

Just out of curiosity, didn't Jesus sort of....revamp that law?

 

[Turbo]

No, but that is a common misconception. Jesus did not correct, update, or abolish any law. He clarified the Law.

 

[Turbo]

(I wish I could go into more detail, lost anolamy, but I don't have time right now... And I probably won't be on much this weekend. Maybe Clete will give you a more thorough answer.)

 

[lost anomaly]

ok. I just remember reading something about it though nad the verse seems to elude me...drat.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

Just out of curiosity, didn't Jesus sort of....revamp that law?

I know what you are hinting at, and you are right. If you look in Isaiah and Psalms, you will see where the greatest men to worship God show us Gods heart. Isaiah showed us how the Sabbath, and fasting in general, where to relieve the burden placed on man, and create justice. But some still used it to work their slaves even harder. David showed us how God wanted contrition and love more than he wanted burnt offering.

Jesus brought the heart of the law, Gods heart, to the rest of us.

Does not mean that there are no rules, though. We just have to exercise much more personal conscienciousness. We have more truth now, and more will be expected of us. I, personally, hope only in Gods grace, since only the Holy Spirit could possibly guide us in such issues. Goodness knows I can't.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

I know what you are hinting at, and you are right. If you look in Isaiah and Psalms, you will see where the greatest men to worship God show us Gods heart. Isaiah showed us how the Sabbath, and fasting in general, where to relieve the burden placed on man, and create justice. But some still used it to work their slaves even harder. David showed us how God wanted contrition and love more than he wanted burnt offering.

Jesus brought the heart of the law, Gods heart, to the rest of us.

Does not mean that there are no rules, though. We just have to exercise much more personal conscienciousness. We have more truth now, and more will be expected of us. I, personally, hope only in Gods grace, since only the Holy Spirit could possibly guide us in such issues. Goodness knows I can't.

Fortunately the Holy Spirit has done just that by having the Bible written.
Forgive my sarcasm, I'm not trying to insult you at all, its just that saying such things are somewhat meaningless when you really boil it down. After all, do you have any Scripture that suggests that we should not execute murders, adulterers, rapist, child molesters, homos, etc.?
No, on the contrary...
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

If you would like to read a thorough treatment of the issue go here.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Duder]

It is very odd how some posters can't go very long without bring up the need to kill folks. And I can't help but wonder - why does killing seem to be such a pressingly important issue, no matter what the thread is about?