Is God temporal or atemporal?

God_Is_Truth

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i am curious as to whether or not the bible shows God as being temporal or atemporal. if anyone needs me to give definitions of these terms just ask.

so, what do you think? temporal, or atemporal?
 

Turbo

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Genesis 1 describes God creating over the course of six days, and then ceasing from creating on the seventh day. (And there's nothing in that chapter mentioning the creation of "time.")
 

God_Is_Truth

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Originally posted by Turbo

Genesis 1 describes God creating over the course of six days, and then ceasing from creating on the seventh day. (And there's nothing in that chapter mentioning the creation of "time.")

suggesting that he is which one? temporal or atemporal? does this mean you believe time is not a created thing? in which case it is either eternal or not a thing at all right? which view do you hold?
 

Lovejoy

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I connect time with entropy. I do not think entropy is going to be around much when all things are made new. I say atemporal. Although, if Revelation is any judge, his is not atempermental.
 

Turbo

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Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

suggesting that he is which one? temporal or atemporal?
Temporal.
does this mean you believe time is not a created thing?
Correct. (But God did create the sun, moon, and stars as means of measuring time.)
in which case it is either eternal or not a thing at all right? which view do you hold?
Not a "thing" at all. "Time" is just a result of events occuring in sequence.


God does not exist "outside of time." On page one of the Bible we are introduced to God, reading that He created things in sequence over the course of six days. Then He ceased from creating on the seventh day. He isn't still creating. He wasn't always creating. And He wasn't creating while at the same time resting from creating.
 

Turbo

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Originally posted by Lovejoy

I connect time with entropy.
Why?


I say atemporal. Although, if Revelation is any judge, his is not atempermental.
:chuckle:

Revelation also speaks of God acting in sequence, opening each the seven bowls and seven seals, etc.
  • When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Revelation 8:1

Also, when we read about the new earth and the new Jerusalem, we read about the tree of life yielding fruit every month.
  • In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month.[/i] The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2
 

Turbo

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Originally posted by lost anomaly

I would like the definitions. Please and thankyou.
As I understand God_Is_Truth's question:

Temporal means "in time." God is temporal if He experiences events in sequence, and if His actions and thoughts occur in sequence.

Atemporal means "not in time" or "outside of time." God is atemporal if He exists in a state of "eternal now," existing everywhen simultaneously. He is "present" right now at every point in the past, present and future. If God is atemporal He must be totally immutable, meaning He cannot change in any way whatsoever.

Does this make sense, lost anomaly?
 

God_Is_Truth

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Temporal.

ok. that's what i was thinking.

Correct. (But God did create the sun, moon, and stars as means of measuring time.)

so would you agree that the definition of time is merely "duration"?

Not a "thing" at all. "Time" is just a result of events occuring in sequence.

aka duration.

God does not exist "outside of time." On page one of the Bible we are introduced to God, reading that He created things in sequence over the course of six days. Then He ceased from creating on the seventh day. He isn't still creating. He wasn't always creating. And He wasn't creating while at the same time resting from creating.

that actually makes pretty good sense. i started this thread because a friend of mine recently heard a talk about open theism (which i missed unfortunately) and says that all the times God repents in the bible it's taken anthropomorphically because God is atemporal and outside of time. i'm really just looking for some good biblical evidence to try and convince him of otherwise.
 

Lion

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The entire bible describes God as being temporal. As Turbo stated, Genesis shows God creating matter, energy, and life, but not time.

We find time everywhere in the bible. Even in heaven.

Besides, if there was any time that had no time, then all time would be in that one time. Enough to make your mind mush like most stupid ideas.
 

God_Is_Truth

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Originally posted by Turbo

As I understand God_Is_Truth's question:

Temporal means "in time." God is temporal if He experiences events in sequence, and if His actions and thoughts occur in sequence.

Atemporal means "not in time" or "outside of time." God is atemporal if He exists in a state of "eternal now," existing everywhen simultaneously. He is "present" right now at every point in the past, present and future. If God is atemporal He must be totally immutable, meaning He cannot change in any way whatsoever.

Does this make sense, lost anomaly?

exactly.
 

God_Is_Truth

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Originally posted by Lion

The entire bible describes God as being temporal. As Turbo stated, Genesis shows God creating matter, energy, and life, but not time.

We find time everywhere in the bible. Even in heaven.

Besides, if there was any time that had no time, then all time would be in that one time. Enough to make your mind mush like most stupid ideas.

so why do you think so many people hold a view that God is atemporal?
 

lost anomaly

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Originally posted by Turbo

As I understand God_Is_Truth's question:

Temporal means "in time." God is temporal if He experiences events in sequence, and if His actions and thoughts occur in sequence.

Atemporal means "not in time" or "outside of time." God is atemporal if He exists in a state of "eternal now," existing everywhen simultaneously. He is "present" right now at every point in the past, present and future. If God is atemporal He must be totally immutable, meaning He cannot change in any way whatsoever.

Does this make sense, lost anomaly?

Yes. Thanks turbo.
 

Lovejoy

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I don't know, that definition does not sit well with me. Christ said that "before Abraham was born, I am". It has linearity without being temporal. Things go in a row, but are not in the proper tenses. When all things are made new, they will not get old again. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And I have not even got to God yet. I think we relate to Him temporally now, and with the New Creation, things change. In fact, heaven and earth are supposed to change, perhaps time does as well, and this is a moot arguement.
 

God_Is_Truth

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Originally posted by Lovejoy

I don't know, that definition does not sit well with me. Christ said that "before Abraham was born, I am". It has linearity without being temporal. Things go in a row, but are not in the proper tenses. When all things are made new, they will not get old again. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And I have not even got to God yet. I think we relate to Him temporally now, and with the New Creation, things change. In fact, heaven and earth are supposed to change, perhaps time does as well, and this is a moot arguement.

how would you define temporal and atemporal then?
 

Turbo

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Originally posted by Lovejoy

I don't know, that definition does not sit well with me. Christ said that "before Abraham was born, I am".
Jesus was quoting what He had said to Moses (Exodus 3:14), thus claiming to be God.

"I AM" is a perfectly appropriate way for God to identify Himself, because He has existed eternity past, He will continue to exist for eternity future, and His holy and righteous character is unchanging. But none of that means that God exists outside of time. If He did, He would not be able to utter the phrase "I AM." Speaking requires time, or sequence.

When all things are made new, they will not get old again.
As in, they will not wear out.

That does not mean that there will be no passage of time! I pointed out a verse that says that in the new creation, the tree of life will yield fruit each month.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
...in his holy and righteous character. But do you agree that He was not always flesh, but that He became flesh? And he was separated from the Father (when he became sin, and then He was later reunited with the Father? That He was alive, and then He died, and then He rose again? And that while He was/is not simultaneously dead and risen? Do you agree that "It is finished," that Jesus is no longer being crucified?

And I have not even got to God yet.
Jesus is God the Son.

I think we relate to Him temporally now, and with the New Creation, things change.
:chuckle: No pun intended?
 

Lovejoy

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I knew this was going to be tougher than it looked at first! Dern' it. Yeah, I agree with your points. My problem is that these arguments are usually to push some kind of theological agenda, and I hate getting caught up in that. I have always looked at the earth (meaning universe rather) as being caught up in a temporal bubble, and the advent of the fleshy Christ as being the Word made flesh in that temporal bubble. That does not mean that actually need that belief, it just makes it simple for me to approach Revelation. You know, I believe that we will measure events in a timely fashion in the New Creation, at the very least so as to keep holy festivals and the like. But I think it will be because it is comfortable to do so.

Where we are parting ways simply has to do with how we see time. I look at it as being a part of entropy, and he gets tossed into the the lake of fire with satan. You are more focused on the linearity of time, which does not go for sure. Linearity is not evil or part of the flesh as far as I know, so there is no reason for it to not continue.

I don't know if God is linear. Mateo and I have been talking about Ecc. and Solomon, and he makes things out to be pretty circular. Even space is supposed to be bent. Light, times second cousin, is twisted in ways I don't understand. For that matter, light is going bye-bye in the next world, to be replaced by the Light of the Holy Spirit. Maybe this is one of those things we will enjoy talking about, but should not plan on understanding.

Tell ya' what. I'll meet there (at the New Creation) and if time is there as well, I'll give you a buck. I should be able to afford it by then. Blessings.
 

Lovejoy

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Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

how would you define temporal and atemporal then?

Sounds like you guys have been around this before. I don't have a description of time that makes sense, except for how I relate to it. Temporal has always meant "things not eternal" to me. If time is here, than all things are subject to it, and all things end. When dealing with things that do not end and are not subject to time, I use the word "eternal". I guess atemporal fits as well.

I should probably disqualify myself from the discussion unless you decide to set some operational guidelines for the words. Then I will follow your lead. If I have the time. ;)
 

Clete

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Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

so why do you think so many people hold a view that God is atemporal?

It IS because of Calvinism.

Calvinism's basic premis is that God cannot change. Proceeding through time would blow that idea to smitherines.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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