Bladerunner
Active member
evidently we are also in agreement....that faith alone is needed for justification. Yet according to James and other scripture, Good Word is required after ones Justification, a walk toward righteousness.
Have a good sir.
Is Faith Without Works Dead?
- Thread starter Right Divider
- Start date
Have a good sir.
Right Divider
Body part
False, good works are a result but not a requirement.
You're repeating falsehoods.
I'm not angry.
If you believe that works are a requirement... you are confused and repeating falsehoods.
You cannot find that in the Bible.
Good works should most definitely follow salvation, but to claim that they are required is FALSE.
Right Divider
Body part
You can find no scripture to support that FALSE claim.
Bordering on blaspheme.
Doing good works does NOT make one righteous or more righteous, or any such thing.
Bladerunner
Active member
If not, then why doe GOD's word tell us that faith without works is no faith at all....It is important, better get it right?
so you say, yet, the only thing we don;t agree on this subject is the 'requirement part'.where is the falsehood?
we just did..Jas 2:20.."But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Now if you are going to say, it does not say it is a requirement, I will remind you that are many ways to make it a requirement without ever saying that word.....the verse above is one.....
I guess you and I read scripture differently. Sad "we just did..Jas 2:20.."But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
Bladerunner
Active member
It did for Abraham.....because He had faith/believed in GOD and because of His works after his justification, He was called righteous. see Jas 2:21-22.
You see, you try to separate the OT salvation from the NT salvation. It is by the mercy of GOD that salvation is granted and by His Grace and Mercy through all the ages, Faith/belief in Him has been a pillar of stone..God does not need the works of a man to grant his salvation but rather his belief that GOD is sovereign and knows better the WAY.
No, He does not.
False.
Wrong.
"No works" means no works. Period. "By grace through faith."
If someone is on their death-bed, and places his trust in Christ, and then dies immediately after, your position would mean he went to hell because He had no works after He was justified.
"Requirement" implies there is a law he must keep.
A member of the body of Christ is no longer under the law when he becomes one.
He lives by faith, not by keeping a law.
It doesn't. You fail to rightly divide.
It's not telling US (members of the Body of Christ) "faith without works is dead."
You're reading someone else's mail, thinking it's addressed to you.
It's telling a future generation of Israel "faith without works is dead."
Not the Body of Christ.
Abraham was righteous BEFORE he did any works. See Romans 4. Yes, the entire chapter.
No such things.
There is the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, and the dispensation of grace.
The Old and New Covenants are both made between the same two parties, God and Israel.
The dispensation of grace is not a covenant (though, it can be compared to one) in and of itself. It was given to Paul who was told to go to the Gentiles, NOT Israel.
Okay?
Not found in scripture.
Bladerunner
Active member
then according to you, God's word is not worth the paper it is written on. We will have to disagree on this part....faith without good works is a dead faith.simple as that.
Bladerunner
Active member
Ok, then John 3:16 is under your same assumptions. they are not for the gentiles but only for the Jews.
Yes, Abraham was righteous long before he almost slew his son, Isaac. This part was the works that God required Him to do...For this obedience, Abraham's faith is God was confirmed.
And the Gentiles who believe have inherited them according to God.
That is not true..Paul is told to go first to the Jews and then the Gentiles.
I have not said that....example....there are two sets of people, both claim they are Christian...Now, the definition of a Christian is they have received salvation....Yet, according to their works , one can tell many are in name only while others are true Christians. While any good works is not written as required, God tells us In Jas 2 that "that faith without works is dead" and if faith is dead, so is the salvation that goes with faith.
??
You do if your creator that spoke you into existence says you do.
What do you make of Jesus saying "No gentiles" more than once, and calling one a dog? Also, you are posting ex-post facto words from the Holy Spirit to corroborate the gospel given to Paul.
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Bladerunner and probably at least one, maybe two others of you need to read the book linked to below because you're missing fully half of the gospel and producing fuel for the fire on judgement day with your works of the flesh....
Classic Christianity: Life's Too Short to Miss the Real Thing
If you don't want to read it, you can listen to the entire book for free on YouTube. Here's a link to chapter 1....
Classic Christianity: Life's Too Short to Miss the Real Thing
If you don't want to read it, you can listen to the entire book for free on YouTube. Here's a link to chapter 1....
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How in the world did you arrive at that conclusion!?
Of course I don't believe that, nor is it what I said!
I believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
And again, you fail to rightly divide the word of truth.
He fails are far more than that. He's talking to you as if nothing I've ever written exists on this entire website!
He isn't interested in even entertaining the notion that he may be missing something important. Let him have the fruits of his labor.
Right Divider
Body part
Again, it seems that your Bible is missing some pages:
Rom 4:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (4:2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. (4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Paul says exactly the OPPOSITE of what James (and YOU) are saying.
Now you're starting to get it.... I think...
Again, I believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
The entire Bible is profitable for men of God.
It doesn't mean that there isn't truth relevant to both Jews and the members of the Body of Christ, let alone deeper truth.
It means that some things were said in certain contexts, and ignoring the context of those things results in a misunderstanding of the text.
There was no need for Abraham to be justified prior to Genesis 17, Bladerunner.
Justification is something that is needed when there is a law one must keep.
Abraham was not under any law prior to Genesis 17.
And in the covenant he WAS in, there was nothing he needed to do to keep it, because he was asleep (cf Genesis 15) when the covenant was made with him!
He was righteous before the law! LITERALLY!
You don't need to justify a man who is already righteous, because he's already been justified!
Don't believe me? Read Galatians 2:16 and its converse, Romans 3:20!
Not found in scripture.
At this point you're arguing with Scripture.
From the very beginning of his ministry, Paul was told to go to the Gentiles.
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 9:15 - New King James Version
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
And 17 years afterwards, He even made an agreement with Peter, James, John, etc, that they would go to the circumcision, and he to the uncircumcision.
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 2:7, Galatians 2:8, Galatians 2:9 - New King James Version
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
He even explicitly identifies himself as the "Apostle to the Gentiles."
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:13, Romans 11:14, Romans 11:15 - New King James Version
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Look, I'm not denying that He went to the Jews. I'm saying his only directive was to take the gospel of grace to the Gentiles, and THAT was what he was told to do.
No, Paul was never specifically told to go to the Jews.
It was just his custom to do so every time he entered a new town.
What?
I think you confused yourself by quoting yourself in addition to me.
Those are your words, not mine. (except for the "Okay?").
Do you not recognize your own words?
There's your first problem.
The definition of a Christian is one who is "in Him."
I addressed this already.
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Translation: It doesn't matter what the Bible says, I'm still going to believe that works are required.
There you go again, trying to read someone else's mail as though it was addressed to you.
James is not talking about the Body of Christ.
What you said is not supported by or found in scripture.
Link to the full playlist:
Bladerunner
Active member
So, your ok with John 3:16 not being for anyone other Israel. If so how do you reconcile that John 3:16 is speaking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the same Paul Spoke of..????
What does the scripture say? Why did Jesus call her a dog? He said he should not give the children's bread to a dog. The "old testament" answers your questions. It is why you don't understand the "New Testament".
For BR, not only that, Luke records what he saw, then what Paul said about what he heard.
16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
In Paul's ministry, he says to the Jew first, and the gentiles. Peter says the same thing. Yet, Galatians 2 says Peter to the Jews, Paul to the gentiles. Because Paul is speaking of a different message.