Is evolution science?

Apologist

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One Eyed Jack said:
To determine the age of the Earth? I don't think so.

I am fairly certain they used carbon dating to date them dinosaur bones, and considering the fact that them dinosaur bones showed up as being millions of years old, i think we can both agree that the Earth is as old, if not far older, than them dinosaur bones.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Apologist said:
I am fairly certain they used carbon dating to date them dinosaur bones,

I'm absolutely certain they didn't.

and considering the fact that them dinosaur bones showed up as being millions of years old, i think we can both agree that the Earth is as old, if not far older, than them dinosaur bones.

I think you need to learn a bit more about that which you speak.
 

Apologist

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One Eyed Jack said:
I'm absolutely certain they didn't.



I think you need to learn a bit more about that which you speak.

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaurs#Evolution

Dinosaurs split off from their archosaur ancestors approximately 230 million years ago during the early Triassic period, roughly 20 million years after the Permian-Triassic extinction event wiped out an estimated 95 percent of all life on Earth.[19] [20] Radiometric dating of fossils from the early dinosaur species Eoraptor establishes its presence in the fossil record at this time

Ahem. What were you saying?
 

Truppenzwei

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Apologist,

Carbon Dating can not date anything further back than around 50 - 70,000 years according to various science sites that I've looked at. This would seem to me to say that Carbon Dating has never been used to date anything as millions of years old.

Radiometric Dating however is a different thing, Carbon Dating is one particular type of Radiometric Dating, there are quite a few others which are used in different situations and for different timescales.

I really suggest that if you are wanting to argue about stuff like this you stop using Wikipedia as a source and start checking out some proper science sites or books. I'm sure that some of the more scientifically inclined will be able to point you in the right direction.
 

Dal M.

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Carbon dating is a type of radiometric dating, but it's incapable of dating things older than 50,000 years or so.

Of course, this alone is enough to refute young-Earth creationism.
 

Truppenzwei

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Dal M. said:
Carbon dating is a type of radiometric dating, but it's incapable of dating things older than 50,000 years or so.

Of course, this alone is enough to refute young-Earth creationism.
That depends on how reliable you think the radiometric dating methods are. If you accept all the underlying assumptions of them to be true then you could say that they refute YEC, if however you do not accept those underlying assumptions then you get a very different story on how reliable the methods are.
 

Dal M.

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Truppenzwei said:
That depends on how reliable you think the radiometric dating methods are. If you accept all the underlying assumptions of them to be true then you could say that they refute YEC, if however you do not accept those underlying assumptions then you get a very different story on how reliable the methods are.

Radiometric dating has been corroborated by other dating methods. Unless you've some evidence that it's actually invalid - and a good reason why the various dating methods come to the same conclusions - there's no reason to doubt its reliability.
 

Apologist

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Wikipedia is about as reliable as britannica. the average wikipedia article has 3 errors, the britannica has like 2.
 

bob b

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Dal M. said:
Radiometric dating has been corroborated by other dating methods. Unless you've some evidence that it's actually invalid - and a good reason why the various dating methods come to the same conclusions - there's no reason to doubt its reliability.

It is more accurate to say that other methods have been correlated to radiometric dating.

C-14 is in the best shape in that it has been used in dating tree rings, which in turn can be directly counted when dealing with a single tree.

In statistics class, as well as in my later experience in data analysis, we learned that correlation of different phenomena is not by itself as compeling evidence as some people typically think.
 

Johnny

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It is more accurate to say that other methods have been correlated to radiometric dating...In statistics class, as well as in my later experience in data analysis, we learned that correlation of different phenomena is not by itself as compeling evidence as some people typically think.
No, corroboration was the more accurate term. "Corroborating evidence is evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some evidence."

What you learned in statistics is that correlation does not imply causation, which is unrelated to the subject at hand. Correlation is the strength of relationship between two variables. For example, in medicine, defect X may often appear with defect Y, but this does not mean that defect X causes defect Y. Little to do with dating methods. Corroboration was more accurate.

Leave it to you to try and discount and play down the strength of corroborating evidence. Only a creationist would ever attempt such a feat. Misapplication of a concept with some ambigous statement of what you learned when you were in school in is a must in this situation.
 

bob b

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Johnny said:
No, corroboration was the more accurate term. "Corroborating evidence is evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some evidence."

What you learned in statistics is that correlation does not imply causation, which is unrelated to the subject at hand. Correlation is the strength of relationship between two variables. For example, in medicine, defect X may often appear with defect Y, but this does not mean that defect X causes defect Y. Little to do with dating methods. Corroboration was more accurate.

Leave it to you to try and discount and play down the strength of corroborating evidence. Only a creationist would ever attempt such a feat. Misapplication of a concept with some ambigous statement of what you learned when you were in school in is a must in this situation.

When scientists use a comparison of the results of one dating method with another they are engaging in correlation of the two results. Depending on the underlying cause this may be a corroboration or it may not, depending on the cause of the correlation.

My point was only that there is a cause as to why the two methods give similar results, and that cause may not be that they are both giving an age that is roughly correct.

There is a logical and sensible reason why dating laboratories usually ask for an estimate of the age of a sample prior to its being dated. However, a double blind test is used in medical testing to avoid the known bias introduced when people know in advance what they are looking for. This is not a major reason for my skepticism of long age dating methods, but it may contribute to helping to mask exceptions that if they were pursued more rigorously to find answers would cast light on reasons why most radiometric methods inherently give long age results and hence why they roughly correlate.

There are other reasons for my not believing dogmatically in long age radiometric dating that are related to our inability to have a direct way of corroborating long age determinations such as we find in the short age C-14 tree ring case.

And of course scripture does give sufficient information in the geneologies to allow us to be certain that it is teaching that humans have been on the Earth only a short while. This was a good enough clue for me to begin to doubt that long age radiometric dating is as infallible as some try to tell us.

In other words, I treat this disconnect between scripture and scientific age determinations as a "wakeup call" left by God to tell us to withhold final judgment on this matter until scientists "dig deeper". After all, correcting previous errors or assumptions as new evidence arises is said to be "what science is all about" (or so I was told by someone here). ;)
 

Jukia

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bob b said:
And of course scripture does give sufficient information in the geneologies to allow us to be certain that it is teaching that humans have been on the Earth only a short while. This was a good enough clue for me to begin to doubt that long age radiometric dating is as infallible as some try to tell us.

;)


Ah, and for those of us who believe that God gave us intellects to try to understand creation, the statement that scripture give us info that allows us to be certain
that humans have only been on the earth a short while actually causes real questions about the accuracy of the Bible, not accuracy of radiometric dating.
 

aharvey

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What do you mean by "prediction"?

What do you mean by "prediction"?

I've seen a few folks here criticize evolution as a science because it doesn't generate "predictions." I must point out that what is meant here, the "fortune-teller" type of "prediction," is not what scientists mean by "prediction." A scientific prediction concerns the nature of data not yet collected, not future events, Nostradamus- or Jean Dixon-style.

For example, evolutionary theory allowed me to predict that certain species of shell-using hermit crabs had more flexible larval development than others, based, curiously enough, on the morphology of adults of non-shell using species. This is a perfectly valid scientific prediction, even though the hermit crabs were already doing what they were doing long before my studies. I was predicting the results of subsequent experiments, which is typical of predictions in any branch of science.
 

bob b

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aharvey said:
I've seen a few folks here criticize evolution as a science because it doesn't generate "predictions." I must point out that what is meant here, the "fortune-teller" type of "prediction," is not what scientists mean by "prediction." A scientific prediction concerns the nature of data not yet collected, not future events, Nostradamus- or Jean Dixon-style.

For example, evolutionary theory allowed me to predict that certain species of shell-using hermit crabs had more flexible larval development than others, based, curiously enough, on the morphology of adults of non-shell using species. This is a perfectly valid scientific prediction, even though the hermit crabs were already doing what they were doing long before my studies. I was predicting the results of subsequent experiments, which is typical of predictions in any branch of science.

Tell us more. What principle, portion or aspect of evolutionary theory allowed you to make your prediction?
 

noguru

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bob b said:
Tell us more. What principle, portion or aspect of evolutionary theory allowed you to make your prediction?

I think that would be common descent Bob. If hermit crabs evolved from hard-shelled crabs then you can make predictions about aspects of their physiology that may have originally been unknown.
 

ItIsWritten

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Remember when they used to believe in EVOLUTION...

Remember when they used to believe in EVOLUTION...

bob b said:
Faith-Based Evolution By Dr. Roy Spencer ...

... True evolution, in the macro-sense, has never been observed, only inferred. A population of moths that changes from light to dark based upon environmental pressures is not evolution -- they are still moths. A population of bacteria that become resistant to antibiotics does not illustrate evolution -- they are still bacteria. In the biological realm, natural selection (which is operating in these examples) is supposedly the mechanism by which evolution advances, and intelligent design theory certainly does not deny its existence. While natural selection can indeed preserve the stronger and more resilient members of a gene pool, intelligent design maintains that it cannot explain entirely new kinds of life -- and that is what evolution is...

Common ancestry requires transitional forms of life to have existed through the millions of years of supposed biological evolution. Yet the fossil record, our only source of the history of life on Earth, is almost (if not totally) devoid of transitional forms of life that would connect the supposed evolution of amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds, etc. This is why Stephen Jay Gould, possibly the leading evolutionist of our time, advanced his punctuated equilibria theory. In this theory, evolution leading to new kinds of organisms occurs over such brief periods of time that it was not captured in the fossil record. Upon reflection, one cannot help but notice that this is not arguing based upon the evidence -- but instead from the lack of evidence.
Thank you bob b for another great post.

PS As to your question, "Is evolution science?"

Well in the sense that an idea that is assumed to be true and is labeled "science" by one generation, can be discovered by a later generation to be in error and become striped of it's "science" moniker -- then in this sense (that "science" is not that which is true but merey that which is the idea of the moment), it would seem that while evolution has been "science" for the past generation, it will rapidly becoming just another has been.
 

bowhunter

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No, definitely not! Science is about QUESTIONS, Evolution is ALWAYS the answer to SOME peoples mind as to how everything came into being. There is NO question in their minds that it could be wrong.
 
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