No you understood right , theres just alot more to the story .
ECT Is Christianity dead ?
- Thread starter Faither
- Start date
No you understood right , theres just alot more to the story .
Turbo it's good to hear your discernment is right on target . I too understand what i'm describing is the narrow path . I've spent close to 15 years trying to show through Scripture , correct Greek definitions , and just plain common sense , how to access the narrow path . I've never in all that time shared why i'm so adamant about it .
The personal experience that i've had with Christ for the last 31 years are my pearls , and i've only recently shared these with my wife and children. The reason being is that i've been really sick for the last few years and i didn't want to leave this world without anyone knowing what God has done. And i don't consider this experience to be anything but the true NT born again experience or receiving of the Spirit of Christ.
With that said your discernment of my post makes me want to put it out there for the world to hear. I really don't know if God wants me to do this , but i'm going to give it a shot. It will have to be written by me in short segments , i'll just add to this post , and it will probably take at least a few days to tell it right.
Just promise me if something i say turns you off at the beginning , don't bail on me . This will take alot for me to get through.
Are you ok with this ?
To put the old aphorism mildly "the road to error is often paved with good intentions."
And such a road is clearly yours and Turbo's...thus, what he said to you about sincerity.
You speak of mistranslation, Faither, and then commit the error yourself.
Fact of the matter is that that passage is stated in what is known as a 1st Class Condition - which as Greek NT Language researcher, Daniel Wallace, has well noted "is considered the 'Simple Condition' and assumes that the premise (protasis) is true for the sake of argument."
As when a parent says to its child "IF your my child, THEN you won't / will do this" that, the other.
The parent is NOT inferring that said child is NOT their child.
Rather, the parent is speaking out of a mutual understanding shared with said child, that said child is their child, and that said parent, is said child's parent.
Likwise, with that passage in Romans 8 - the Apostle Paul is addressing already Spirit filled Believers.
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Verses 5 and 7 there make use of one of the various "conditional clauses" the original language is replete with, and that can throw those off who just go by their own notion of "the Holy Bible" and of "it means what it says" - all the while obviously ignorant of the most basic of grammatical rules where getting at intended sense properly, is concerned.
In that passage in Romans 8, Paul is making his argument from within the same kind of First Class Condition of that parent in my above example.
He was speaking to already Spirit filled Believers- his argument is from that; on that basis...
Note what he says to them in....
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Study out the following on this First Class Condition used by him in that passage in Romans 8.
Because the fact of the matter is that one can be sincere all one wants, but absent of a grammatically sound study approach, one can end up off-base - if not - way off-base.
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm
This one has some really great examples of said First Class Condition and other kinds of Conditions, and how to begin to tell which is which...the parts after his examples of the word "since" are real gems.
https://bible.org/article/myth-about-meaning-first-class-conditions-greek
Rom. 5:8.
turbosixx
New member
Absolutely!
Turbo , i think it would be better if i told this to you in private. It will just be dragged through the mud in open threads. I'll pm you .
I tried to send you a PM but your inbox is full . If you want to fix that or Pm me your email ?
Or post it to him in the comments section in the thanks option at the bottom left.
Rom. 5:8
Alright danoh lets take Rom . 8;9 and all Scripture off the table . I'm trying to find a place to start the discussion.
Do you agree with ,
1) We are born into this world without the Spirit of Christ in us yet.
2) As the result of not having the Spirit of Christ in us ( or how ever you would phrase that) Christ and His Word are not ours to claim yet .
Would you agree with these two statements and are comfortable in starting a convo from there?
Interplanner
Well-known member
Faither,
you are trying to deal with the problem of objective meaning to the Christian's faith, but you are not making any progress. it has never worked to merge the objective elements with our response to those objective elements. That is what most of your posts attempt to do.
Part of the problem is the human will wanting to have something that 'makes' other people perform the right things as believers, a business which is entirely up to God. But we as humans want to be in charge of it. down through church history, groups have come up with their lists and alienated lots of people. That means they 'killed' Christian faith for those people.
We all have to remember that the original audience of the NT and its Gospel were deep in Judaism. If you're not deep in that from birth, it might not come across the same as was meant. "that they might have life and have it more abundantly" is about Judaism (or what ex-Judaism would be like) not about the disappearance of problems.
Whenever Paul mentioned faith he was simultaneously referring to its object: Christ Jesus and his doing and dying for us. For the same reason he might NOT mention faith, but be in a rich passage on Christ, say Col 1, and is saying the same thing.
The objective truth of Christ is meant to inspire us, woo us, win us, compel us to righteousness that matters. To give freely, because we have received freely. To forgive, because we have been forgiven. Yes, we can say that if there is no fruit, something in the person is fighting it, kicking back at the objective truth, and that's a tragedy. We may or may not be able to help, but it is ultimately between him and God. The Spirit blows where it wants.
All this to say, self-inspiration, self-wooing, self-compulsion will not accomplish what God wants and will smell 'religious' in the worst sense. The Spirit does blow where it wants.
How can pisteuo , or "A personal surrender to Him and and a life inspired by such surrender" be self inspiration, wooing , or compulsion ? It's no longer your life anymore .
Your analogy would only work if i were expecting a return of some sort for my surrender . If that were the case , it wouldn't be a surrender anymore but a business deal or a vending machine kind of relationship. And there lies the problem at its core , our expectation of God to serve us instead of us serving Him. That service to Him can only start , be maintained and completed here on earth by a continual surrendering of our lives to Him and making daily decisions to support that surrender.
I'm putting these questions out there for anyone to answer.
1) Are we born into this world without the Spirit of Christ in us yet?
2) As the result of not having the Spirit of Christ in us ( or how ever you would phrase that) Christ and His Word are not ours to claim yet ?
1) Are we born into this world without the Spirit of Christ in us yet?
2) As the result of not having the Spirit of Christ in us ( or how ever you would phrase that) Christ and His Word are not ours to claim yet ?
Danoh , interplanner , or anyone else , why won't you answer these simple question?
I can tell you why if you like.
And let me just guess , you'll answer this post with personal attacks.
What is the point?
For you are long set in your misunderstanding of this issue.
No to the first question, and the second question is a logical fallacy.
Because your view is.
Take that "personal" or allow yourself to be challenged by it.
Either is on you.
Fact of the matter is that the Corinthians were carnal as can be.
And yet, they clearly had been indwelt by the Spirit throughout.
That they chose to go by their own route; has nothing to do with said indwelling.
Why?
1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
There is no point in dealing with you on this issue - you are so set in your error on it, that even the obvious contradiction to your view frequently proven your contradiction by the Scripture itself, is obviously read by a pair of eyes clearly wide shut.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
It is what it is, with some...
Rom. 5:8
Thanks for the reply Danoh .
Of course the answer is no , although Christ has paid the price for the sins of everyone ever born , they would not have His Spirit or be His until something happens which would position themselves to recieve His Spirit , i think we would both agree, that happening is "FAITH" pistis , or the application of Faith , pisteuo.
Next question ,
So lets say i'm born in the year 683. I'm being drawn to Christ by the Father , even though i don't know His name or anything about Him. What can i do to start a relationship with God or recieve His Spirit ?
Come on interplanner , i respect your place here. Aren't we both looking for the same thing ?
Talk about this with me .
Which, of course, assumes that I subscribe to your obvious misunderstanding of said "drawing."
I do not.
That was way back then, and the Father was drawing Israel to His Son THROUGH THOSE MIRACLES THE FATHER WAS THEN WORKING THROUGH HIS SON.
Why?
To prove TO ISRAEL that He was THEIR PROPHESIED Christ.
Put your "pistachios" away, and just read about the connection between those two in Matt. thru John :chuckle:
Sorry, I just love a good ribbing
Rom. 5:8.
Which, of course, assumes that I subscribe to your obvious misunderstanding of said "drawing."
I do not.
That was way back then, and the Father was drawing Israel to His Son THROUGH THOSE MIRACLES THE FATHER WAS THEN WORKING THROUGH HIS SON.
Why?
To prove TO ISRAEL that He was THEIR PROPHESIED Christ.
Put your "pistachios" away, and just read about the connection between those two in Matt. thru John :chuckle:
Sorry, I just love a good ribbing
Rom. 5:8.
You don't subscribe to " nobody comes to Christ less the Father draws Him. "
Here i though you were on top of your scripture passages.
Which, of course, assumes that I subscribe to your obvious misunderstanding of said "drawing."
I do not.
That was way back then, and the Father was drawing Israel to His Son THROUGH THOSE MIRACLES THE FATHER WAS THEN WORKING THROUGH HIS SON.
Why?
To prove TO ISRAEL that He was THEIR PROPHESIED Christ.
Put your "pistachios" away, and just read about the connection between those two in Matt. thru John :chuckle:
Sorry, I just love a good ribbing
Rom. 5:8.
Jn 6 :44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
The Father has to draw us to Christ before we "faithe" ( or pisteuo ) into Him.
No subscription necessary , it's just a fact.
Which, of course, assumes that I subscribe to your obvious misunderstanding of said "drawing."
I do not.
That was way back then, and the Father was drawing Israel to His Son THROUGH THOSE MIRACLES THE FATHER WAS THEN WORKING THROUGH HIS SON.
Why?
To prove TO ISRAEL that He was THEIR PROPHESIED Christ.
Put your "pistachios" away, and just read about the connection between those two in Matt. thru John :chuckle:
Sorry, I just love a good ribbing
Rom. 5:8.
The Greek is specific , some are drawn to Christ, some aren't.
The ones that are have a desire to know Him better.
Theres no question that everyone on this site has been drawn by the Father , other wise they wouldn't want to be here.
The problem is they are stuck in that drawing process ,. because they have tripped over the stumbling block of the mistranslation of the word that describes how we start the relationship with Christ.