Rosenritter
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So which dispensation would it be that is permitted to proudly stand on their two feet defying God, refusing to kneel, and thus to enter into eternal life?
Is Calvinism Wrong?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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So which dispensation would it be that is permitted to proudly stand on their two feet defying God, refusing to kneel, and thus to enter into eternal life?
Rosenritter
New member
That depends on what you understand by the meaning of "doing" and "make" and "perfect." That isn't a legalistic passage, rather quite the opposite. The actions of those things mentioned are the fruits produced by a heart that loves his enemy, thus "doing" is the heart of the action, rather than the mere action itself. And again, as this is speaking to a change of heart, "make" would be the process of softening and changing our the heart. Finally, the context of the passage tells us what Christ meant by perfect, that love is what is truly perfect.
Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
(43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
(46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
(47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Let's pretend you asked a different question, such as "Will lifting weights make you strong?" I understand that I could say "yes" and you could point to many people who lifted a weight or lifted weights did not grow strong. Let's set aside that type of response.
Rather to your first question above, I would say yes, "continually doing those things [actions of love] will continue to make one perfect [bring one towards that perfection] even in the perfection of love after the love of our Father." If God loved us when we were enemies, and his love is perfect, should we not also strive towards that same perfection?
Rosenritter
New member
I do not see anything in Romans 9 that would mandate the individualist election to salvation in the Calvinist sense. You allowed that it [also] applies in the corporate sense, and if it is meant in the corporate sense, there is no intrinsic need to assume it applies in another sense. Regardless, even if we were to assume for sake of argument that it did mean to teach in the full Calvinist sense, that brings us back to the problem that salvation is merely a story of fatalism, and in such a case why should we even care?
Pharaoh's heart was hardened to stop him from relenting... and not because of a natural relenting of the heart, but a relenting in the face of superior firepower.
I might allow that God hardened others of Egypt without telling us (I don't think either of us can deny that possibility) but can anyone argue that the people of Egypt had much of a say in how their nation was led? Could an individual Egyptian family protest babies being thrown into the Nile? Could a set of officers say to Pharaoh "We will not follow them into the Red Sea?" God only needed to harden the heart of the leader to make an example of the nation. And yet, even in this case when we are expressly told that Egypt was destroyed through the hardness of Pharaoh's heart, this was for the purpose of the destruction of the nation, not concerning the ultimate salvation of souls.
I wasn't expecting a comment from that angle, or a dispute that not all individuals of physical Israel shall be saved. If that was your objection, if you were saying that all who were of Israel shall be saved and this is guaranteed, do you also apply this salvation to other folk, including (but not limited to) Korah, Ahab, Omri, Jezebel, and Judas?
Translation: Babble.
You argued: Luke 6:44-45 KJV, deleting Luke 6:46 KJV....That is slick.....real slick...
Fine. Sell all you have-Luke 18:22 KJV.
We thought so.
Again-To remove the fog, by rightly dividing the word of truth, and thus avoiding the necessity of having to spin, "spiritualize" hundreds of verses in the book, by recognizing to whom the passages were written, when, the context, considering what went before, and after, and recognizing the difference between the prophetic program, and the mystery program......To wit:
The Lord Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to sell all:
Command given: Mt. 19:21 KJV, Mk. 10:21 KJV;Luke 12:33 KJV, Luke 18:22 KJV
Command obeyed: Mt. 19:27 KJV;Mk.10:28 KJV;Luke 5:11KJV, Luke 18:28 KJV, Acts 2:44-45 KJV,Acts 4:32-34 KJV
Penalty for disobedience-death-Acts 5:1-11 KJV
Do you have "...all things common...": Acts 2:44 KJV, Acts 4:32-34 KJV , Acts 3:6 KJV?
Well?
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46 KJV
Have you sold all your possessions? This is one of the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ, in simple, 6th grade English, Jethro:
"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21 KJV
"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." Luke 12:32-33 KJV
("Extra credit" on this test! Please elaborate as to why you do or "do not the things" of giving alms, since obviously the body of Christ is being addressed here-"little flock"=the body of Christ.)
"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22 KJV
Read it-"sell all that thou hast,"
Any answer along the lines of "He really did not mean that literally- He was merely ONLY attempting to teach/convey a spiritual truth", or, "that was before the cross and the resurrection", will be "red marked" as incorrect, and "non responsive/incomplete", for the disciples did exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ said, both before and after the death, burial, and resurrection:
"before"
"Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" Matthew 19:27 KJV
Read it-"we have forsaken all,"
"Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee." Mark 10:28 KJV
"Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee." Luke 18:28 KJV
Read it-"we have left all"
"after"
"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." Acts 2:44 KJV , Acts 2:45 KJV
Read it-"all things in common"
"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Acts 3:6 KJV
That is why Peter said "Silver and gold have I none;"-he sold it all, per direct orders, from the Commander In Chief, the Lord Jesus Christ, the reason being, in the context of the impending(at that time) "Great Trib."
"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:32-35 KJV
Read it-"all things in common"/They sold their homes, land.
Communism, folks. Anyone doing that today? I thought so. Watch the upcoming spin.....Watch.
(PS: "Extra credit" on this test! Provide your analysis as to the merits of communism, i.e., "...all things common..." vs. "free enterprise"/"capitalism", per Acts 11:29 KJV ,"every man according to his ability...", " today. And we must "leave out "
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Timothy 5:8 KJV
since, obviously Paul had not read the previous cited scriptures. Why Paul?!)
Penalty for disobedience:death-Acts 5:1-11 KJV, per Numbers 15:29-31 KJV :
"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."
I expect each and every believer to "Produce your cause......bring forth your strong reasons...", as to why you do obey these commands, or, conversely, why you "....do not do the things which I say..."(Luke 6:46 KJV). If you do obey these commands, I would at least respect your intellectual honesty, and your consistency.
As Elijah of old demanded, and I likewise demand: "...How long halt ye between two opinions?..." (1 Kings 18:21 KJV)
And I do not expect "....And the people answered him not a word...." (1 Kings 18:21 KJV)
Rosenritter
New member
Are you asking as to whether socialism and/or communism is the intended application of Christ's will for us today? If yes, are you making any distinction various scope or scale of application, including family, spiritual brethren, the local neighbor, the local community, or national? If no, would you be able to simply state your intended question without use of rhetoric?
I can think of many examples to indicate that the New Testament church both provided for those in need but at the same time was not about social wealth redistribution. And while you may be raising valid questions, I think you may be misinterpreting some of those passages in your zeal. For example, there was no penalty of death for not selling all that you had to give to others as you indicated here:
Here's the actual text of the passage, with Peter stating exactly the reason for the transgression and the death of Ananias:
Acts 5:3-4 KJV
(3) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
(4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
The sin was not owning the property, or what portion he decided to give after it had been sold. The sin was lying to the Holy Ghost about the price of the land sold. This is why Peter says "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?"
John Gill commentary
Spoiler
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, those are NOT fruits of the heart, but of the flesh. Those require man's efforts to obey the law.
Fruits of the flesh are the complete opposite of the fruit of the Spirit.
The efforts man makes to be holy will NEVER make him perfect. He can strive and strive and strive and never be perfect. Which is the point I, and others, are trying to get you to see. Matt. 5 should be causing you to say, "Wait, I can never really do those things". Until you do that, you won't see your need to leave the law behind and turn to Grace.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You might want to think about that comment. It really has nothing to do with anything.
Maybe you were just being facetious?
glorydaz
Well-known member
That actually says "increase our faith". Right?
I guess I would say He applies our faith, which then gives us access to God's grace. We see it here, along with "If we believe".
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
He's certainly the object of our faith, so that seems right.
Yes, but with all respect to AMR, that doesn't make sense considering other verses. Romans 3:22, Gal. 2:16
It's a wonderful topic. Trust, of course, would be the main thing, wouldn't it?
Pitiful "assert/pound the podium/declare 'victory'/return to 'All of the bible is about me, is directed to me, for my obedience, and all the bible says the same thing" echo chamber.
No, I brilliantly expounded, from a "right division" principle, and all we got from you, is "Well, it really does not mean that....It says the same thing" scribble.
Sell all you have.
We thought so.
And you really stumped me, us all, taught as a few thins, Lucy, with that " Here's the actual text of the passage......" teaching lesson.
That cliche settles most debates.....Yes siree.....
Stunning....
Take your seat, until I decide to recognize you.
Rosenritter
New member
Ephesians 5:9 KJV
(9) (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I must disagree with you Glory. Love is certainly a fruit of the spirit. We are to become perfect in love.
Rosenritter
New member
I may have been a little sharp. Was I misunderstanding his meaning here?
I've heard dispensationalists claim that "Without faith, it is impossible to please him" only applies to Jews
Spoiler
Rosenritter
New member
Matthew 17:19-20 KJV
(19) Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
(20) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
God takes the grain of our faith and increases it.
Rosenritter
New member
1. I asked you to define your question.
2. I acknowledged that the subject was valid.
3. I demonstrated that you had misread a basic interpretation of Acts 2.
So your response is to refuse to define your question (demonstrating that you either haven't thought it through or were simply trolling) and you object to my polite phrasing that you "may be misinterpreting some of those passages" pointing to the example where you terribly failed on the reading (or never read Acts 5:4).
I don't see anyone else supporting your assertion that Ananias did not have the option of retaining any or all of the money from the sale of his property. Peter said the problem was that he lied about the amount. Maybe you can find someone who agrees with you and talk to them.
No problem.
I use to post a lot, attempting to answer every point.
I've gotten weary of untangling haywire.
My meaning was that most professing Christians conflate the truths of prophecy for national Israel and the truths regarding the mystery revealed to and thru the Apostle Paul for the nations... and think nothing about it.
I don't agree with that. I consider it a universal truth/principle.
Well... ain't it?
Not everything in Scripture is about what the glorified Christ revealed to the Apostle Paul for the nations. I'm a lot bit sensitive to those who think it is.
No problem.
By what, specifically?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ephesians 5:9 KJV
(9) (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I must disagree with you Glory. Love is certainly a fruit of the spirit. We are to become perfect in love.
We were discussing Matt. 5, though, weren't we? Matt. 5 is NOT speaking of the fruit of the Spirit, because the Spirit (the Comforter) had not yet come. John 16:7 If you read Matt. 5 carefully, you'll see that the love being spoken of there is what man must try and muster up through his own effort. And he can try very valiantly to do so. Will he do so perfectly as God does? He can claim to. He can pretend to. But he will fail.
Matt. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
No, the fruit of the Spirit was not available until Christ ascended to the Father. The fruit of the Spirit comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit in the believer, which is not the fruits (works of the flesh) you're speaking of which are produced by man through his own effort. At least that's what Matt. 5 is talking about. It's law.
This is grace...where the fruit of the Spirit comes into play.
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Right, but that, too, is being addressed to the disciples. The powers that were given them to cast out demons, etc. were for a time and purpose, and was not for us.
Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
We, on the other hand, have been given the Spirit, and we have the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, faith, etc.
Lon
Well-known member
You would, the unbeliever wouldn't (and doesn't). Fairly clear?
Which is a point acquiesced, isn't it? At this point, if I can explain why individual election is no longer a problem for me, let me know. For the most part, this: Matthew 5:45 Matthew 13:29,30 1 Peter 2:4-8
Also appropriate response here too: Matthew 5:45 Matthew 13:29,30 1 Peter 2:4-8
The cornerstone for some, a stone of stumbling for the other but the same Christ and Lord. I believe plagues can soften or harden. Any discipline is this way: Love can reach, or be dismissed. Discipline can be regarded or ignored. Same God, different responses.
No. I'm saying eschatology and Israel's future is a huge discussion. It may or may not help to say "Covenant Theology" at that point, but that's what I meant. If you understand it, I didn't have to go further than the mention. If not? It may help steer the further discussion. -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Yes, but it is like "Lord I believe, help my unbelief" as I'm reading it. Our confidence is in Him.
Let's take a second (or two): Is "confidence" and equitable word for "Faith?" If so, I think I can say with confidence, it was God who gave me confidence in Him, thus is the author and perfector of my confidence.
Just to be sure I'm listening: Are you equating 'faith' with 'belief' here? Thanks.
:up: Thank you.
AMR can explain his own theology, but for me (and why I brought him up), it makes sense in that faith is assurance/confidence. While we 'exercise' faith in our actions, it is, at least I'm agreeing with AMR, it is part of the gift. Ephesians 2:10, continues the thought for me: "We" - His workmanship..." That'd mean He is making me in His image, thus my confidence is also given (as mentioned above).
How do you see 'Trust' in relation to "Faith?" (I see them related closesly too, and thank you again ahead of time).
The Holy Spirit is only given to those that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him. This is why many Calvinist do not have the Holy Spirit, instead of trusting in Christ to save them, they are trusting that they have been predestinated, which leaves out the redeeming work of Christ. No one will be saved that is not thoroughly and completely trusting in Christ to save them. This is why it is the Gospel plus nothing.