Is Calvinism Wrong?

[glorydaz]

Hebrews 12:2 :think:

I've seen several meanings of that word...captain, prince, example and leader, but never seen it used as bestower.

We see the same Greek word as AUTHOR used here as the CAPTAIN...

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.​

 

[Rosenritter]

I've seen several meanings of that word...captain, prince, example and leader, but never seen it used as bestower.

We see the same Greek word as AUTHOR used here as the CAPTAIN...

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.​

Adding on to that above,

Hebrews 12:2 KJV
(2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 5:4 KJV
(4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

The author and finisher of our faith would be he who created our plan of salvation and he who redeems us at his coming, would it not?

Revelation 22:12-13 KJV
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

It is not uncommon to hear the phrase "our faith" used in the sense of "everything that we truly hope for and believe."

 

[john w]

Luke 6:44-45 KJV
(44) For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
(45) A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

I am not interested in playing that type of game with you. If you don't want to speak peaceably then you needn't respond to posts and questions that aren't directed to you anyways.

Genesis Revelation. So there-I just "one upped" you.

Not interested, you quip? No, that would the attitude of most TOL members, toward your cliche sound bytes.

 

[john w]

Luke 6:44-45 KJV
(44) For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
(45) A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

I am not interested in playing that type of game with you. If you don't want to speak peaceably then you needn't respond to posts and questions that aren't directed to you anyways.

Luke 6:44, you assert? And yet you conveniently delete, leave out, the verses, to follow:


Luke 6 KJV
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48 he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


Luke 18:22 KJV Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.



Do it.


I thought so, as another "all of the commands of the bible are about me, directed to me, for my obedience" drone is exposed.



What else do you want to "prove," from the bible?

 

[Rosenritter]

Luke 6:44, you assert? And yet you conveniently delete, leave out, the verses, to follow:


Luke 6 KJV
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48 he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


Luke 18:22 KJV Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Do it.

I thought so, as another "all of the commands of the bible are about me, directed to me, for my obedience" drone is exposed.

What else do you want to "prove," from the bible?

Aside from that was a specific instruction for that one person, even if that is interpreted as applicable as a general statement of principle, I have probably come closer to fulfilling that literal command than anyone posting on these boards. Is there anything else I would like you to prove? How about the meaning of silence?

...

 

[Lon]

I've seen several meanings of that word...captain, prince, example and leader, but never seen it used as bestower.

We see the same Greek word as AUTHOR used here as the CAPTAIN...

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.​

Interesting. The link doesn't have bestower for me :think:

Archay the word for 'archeology' and archaic etc. thus is associated with 'beginning' or beginner. Ago is to lead or bring forth, thus "beginner and one who leads our faith forth. For me: 1 Corinthians 4:7 and James 4:14-16

 

[glorydaz]

Interesting. The link doesn't have bestower for me :think:

Archay the word for 'archeology' and archaic etc. thus is associated with 'beginning' or beginner. Ago is to lead or bring forth, thus "beginner and one who leads our faith forth. For me: 1 Corinthians 4:7 and James 4:14-16

I used the word "bestower" because of the idea some seem to have that saving faith is bestowed upon us. Which is why I thought you were quoting that text in Hebrews. Was I wrong about that being your intent?

 

[glorydaz]

Aside from that was a specific instruction for that one person, even if that is interpreted as applicable as a general statement of principle, I have probably come closer to fulfilling that literal command than anyone posting on these boards. Is there anything else I would like you to prove? How about the meaning of silence?

...

That's an odd thing to say. What is it you come closer to fulfilling?

 

[Rosenritter]

That's an odd thing to say. What is it you come closer to fulfilling?

The "forsaking all that you have" part. It was a complicated situation that is difficult to explain, but the other option was to later answer why I had chosen to continue to go along with what I knew to be wrong... "what is not of faith is sin." I apologize for bringing in a reference that I won't properly elaborate.

 

[glorydaz]

The "forsaking all that you have" part. It was a complicated situation that is difficult to explain, but the other option was to later answer why I had chosen to continue to go along with what I knew to be wrong... "what is not of faith is sin." I apologize for bringing in a reference that I won't properly elaborate.

You might be surprised at how many have willing done that very thing. Then we have this.

Per John W's comment, was this written as something you were encouraged to do?

Acts 2:44-45
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.​

 

[steko]

Aside from that was a specific instruction for that one person, even if that is interpreted as applicable as a general statement of principle, I have probably come closer to fulfilling that literal command than anyone posting on these boards. Is there anything else I would like you to prove? How about the meaning of silence?

...

I lived in th woods fasting for a spell, even poured dirt on my head.
Reckon that'll get me into th Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[Rosenritter]

You might be surprised at how many have willing done that very thing. Then we have this.

Per John W's comment, was this written as something you were encouraged to do?

Acts 2:44-45
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.​

I think that Christ's statements to the young man were for a different reason. If the young man sold all that he had, he still has the money and can go back at any time. If he gives it to his friends, they might also repay him at a later date. But if he sells all that he has and gives it to the poor, you cannot go and take back what will be quickly spent. It would be like the proverbial "burning your ships" to state that there's no sense looking back until you reach the destination.

Matthew 19:21 KJV
(21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

While I believe that Christ's command to the young man was literal in this sense (and that Jesus intended him to literally follow him) I think that the spiritual application still applies to all of us. We need to be ready to set aside anything that we have if it would interfere with following He whom we should follow. I am sure that there are many different versions or applications of this that we have faced.

The passage in Acts 2:44-45 I think has different application, that being the actual purpose of mutual love and care for the brethren. Although not a specific commandment, I think it does demonstrate a good spirit, one that would do well to encourage in all of us, and it is in keeping with similar passages in James:

1 John 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
(17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

This could easily branch into another subject.

 

[Rosenritter]

I lived in th woods fasting for a spell, even poured dirt on my head.
Reckon that'll get me into th Kingdom of Heaven?

Not exactly... actions don't buy the Kingdom of Heaven, He judges the heart. However, Jesus did say that blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. If we have things that we need to do to remind us of humility, it is better to part with pride on our knees than to be cast into hell fire proudly defiant on our own two feet.

 

[steko]

You might be surprised at how many have willing done that very thing. Then we have this.

Per John W's comment, was this written as something you were encouraged to do?

Acts 2:44-45
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.​

Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

Act 11:27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
Act 11:30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

"Anybody here seen th' fuzzy-wuzzy lovin' cup explosion? I think we missed it!"- The Guess Who

 

[steko]

Not exactly... actions don't buy the Kingdom of Heaven, He judges the heart. However, Jesus did say that blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. If we have things that we need to do to remind us of humility, it is better to part with pride on our knees than to be cast into hell fire proudly defiant on our own two feet.

Mixing dispensations renders apparent contradictions.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[glorydaz]

I think that Christ's statements to the young man were for a different reason. If the young man sold all that he had, he still has the money and can go back at any time. If he gives it to his friends, they might also repay him at a later date. But if he sells all that he has and gives it to the poor, you cannot go and take back what will be quickly spent. It would be like the proverbial "burning your ships" to state that there's no sense looking back until you reach the destination.

Matthew 19:21 KJV
(21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Lots of IF's there. There always are in the law.

Reminds me of this text. The way to be perfect under the law is very demanding. Turn the other cheek, give your cloak to him who takes your coat, go with those who compel you and go an extra mile at that, give to any who ask and lend to whoever would borrow. Was Jesus talking to you here?

Matt. 5:39-42 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.​

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Will doing those things make you perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect?

 

[glorydaz]

1 John 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
(17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

This could easily branch into another subject.

It could. In fact, it's branching as we speak. The Law on one side, and Grace on the other. The law says we ought to do what grace gives us the desire to do. What the Holy Spirit gives us the power to do. To will and to do His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

 

[Lon]

Sometimes it might be very difficult to know why someone sees something one way compared to another. Thank you for continuing regardless (and I am going to try to "condense" this to the Reader's Digest version, no offense intended.

Question: is there any record of the person of Esau literally serving the person of Jacob? I remember Jacob pleading to Esau and sending him very large gifts, and as such it would seem that Jacob served Esau. Yet we do have record of Israel conquering Edom, such as 2 Samuel 2:14. Wouldn't that imply that the application of that verse was corporate rather than personal?

Sure, but as I said, Paul is concerned with individuals in Romans 9 else it would have been 'we' as in 'why did God create 'us' this way? Instead of "me." His example is singular which was my point. While I can appreciate retreading, I think I've spent a bit of time in Romans 9 substantiating this portion of disagreement. That is, I've provided, I think, sufficient scripture support for individual concern vs. corporate. That doesn't, for me, discount corporate application as well, it just means I believe Paul is centering clearly on individually falling into God's plans. Esau and Jacob were individually talked about and of course, there was both singular and corporate concern and application. It is true in Romans 9 too. Paul does group gentiles and Jews as well as treat individuals.

I already pointed out the next verse. Pharaoh would be corporate just like Jacob or Esau. If Jacob is Israel, and Esau is Edom, then likewise Pharaoh is Egypt. It is not unusual to refer to a kingdom by the name of its king or the descendants by its patriarch.

I disagree. It wasn't Egypt's heart that was hardened. It was Pharaoh's.

In response to "do you at least see why Calvinists read this [Romans 9] differently" I can say yes, I do. Today's culture is very individualistic and it likely affects the way you or I might understand our initial reading. I was also born into this individualistic culture and I understand how Romans 9 by itself would support your view. It is the contradictions it creates that spurs us to look deeper to resolve the conflict.

Not particularly for me. I've provided sufficient internal evidence that Paul is indeed focusing on individuals, even if we agree a larger corporate context is on the table. My argument is that it isn't exclusively so nor can such, imho, be sufficiently argued from the text.

But the bible often does use the corporate for which we would naturally think of the individual. Does not Paul say, "In Adam all die?" and have you given thought as to why Israel was required to pay tithes only after they entered Canaan, and only then on the agricultural increase (but not the hire of the workman's labor?)

Genesis 28:20-22 KJV
(20) And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
(21) So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
(22) And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

God gave Canaan to Israel, and the tenth was required of all that inherited the land that his descendants inherited and unto which they carried his bones for burial. God called in that promise that made by Jacob; it applied to his descendants that inherited that land.



Somehow we are seeing to entirely different things here. "Not all Israel is Israel" because all Israel shall be saved. It remains true that corporate Israel shall be saved, but the individuals that will finally be in that Israel is still not set. And here in Romans Paul tells us that this Israel is without regard to Jew or Gentile.

A few different theology takes here on corporate Israel. Some believe God has no plan for the people who once were of the promise, etc. I realize a lot of people, it seems like you, get really caught up in their particular interpretation, but for me: best not to try and teach it, because I'm Covenant in my theology. We just don't see things the same way regarding future promise and eschatology.

One more thing to ask: in the Old Testament parable of the potter and the clay, does the potter form the clay badly on purpose, or does it indicate that it is a fault with the clay, which will ultimately be shattered and destroyed unless it repents? Doesn't it indicate that the Potter wants the clay to repent, to be formed into a good vessel?

Let alone whether God knew what kind of clay and why bother at all? Matthew 5:45 and in light of Romans 9:18,21 - 2 Timothy 2:20

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Lon]

I used the word "bestower" because of the idea some seem to have that saving faith is bestowed upon us. Which is why I thought you were quoting that text in Hebrews. Was I wrong about that being your intent?

RATS! Now I have to look up "bestow!".....
It means 1) give 2)to apply and/or 3) to place there.
Its such a big word (so 'no' not my original thought).

Does God 'give' us faith? Yes Luke 17:5
Does God apply faith to/for us? :think: *(would love to see your thoughts on this one)
Does God place faith in us? Directly? :idunno: Certainly we have nothing we have not received.

So rather, I was keying in on Him being the 'beginner' and grower of our faith. In indirect ways a bit beyond me (ala 1 Corinthians 4:7), He is also the source of our faith (Colossians 1:17 John 15:5 as well).

I originally posted it with a " :think: " because scriptures come to mind and sometimes seem to need to push conversation further and in this context, it was indeed to continue to question what our gift from Ephesians 2:8,9 is. AMR says the whole ball of wax "by grace...saved...through faith..."

I know 'what' faith is Hebrews 11:1 "Assurance of what is {hoped} for" It used to be hope wasn't always equated with 'wishful.' It used to be 'confidence' so I like confidence: "assurance of what one is confident in" but that seems circular to me. If one is 'confident' how then doesn't that already mean assured? :idunno: At any rate, assurance, confidence = Faith and God had to interact with me in order for me to grasp such confidence. Did He then 'author' my confidence? Yes. Is He completing my assurance? Yes. Does He 'make confidence' in me? Yes.

Is He practicing 'confidence' for me? :idunno: I'm not sure what someone would mean by that. Perhaps you can share a little more with me what the debate is regarding the matter. I'm not sure I've fully understood the dilemma (why I threw the verse out). Thank you, Glory. -Lon