beloved57
Well-known member
Do you understand my post ? What are the points made ?
Is believing/faith a work ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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Do you understand my post ? What are the points made ?
genuineoriginal
New member
Grace has acquired many erroneous definitions, which makes talking about what the Bible says about grace impossible.
Instead of using "grace" when translating g5485 χάρις charis, we should use "favor" with these two meanings:
favor
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If we find favor (kind regard) in the eyes of God, God will desire to give us eternal life as a favor (a gift or present) in return.
We cannot find favor (kind regard) in the eyes of God by trying to obligate God to give us eternal life in return for our labor (works).
Not quite.
God has no obligation to save anyone and never will have any obligation to save anyone.
God only gives eternal life to those people that please Him enough to find favor (kind regard) in His eyes to the point where God desires to give eternal life as a favor (a gift or present) in return.
The problem with the "grace alone" doctrine is that it rejects doing any of the things that please God enough for God to desire to give eternal life.
beloved57
Well-known member
I recommend instead of blustering about it, try to show that he's wrong. That would certainly liven up this discussion...
musterion
Well-known member
Faith is not a work.
Paul is clear that salvation during this dispensation of grace is through faith alone, excluding all work.
God cannot be requiring something He said is excluded.
They are set as opposed things, therefore they cannot be the same thing.
How is this even a question?
Paul is clear that salvation during this dispensation of grace is through faith alone, excluding all work.
God cannot be requiring something He said is excluded.
They are set as opposed things, therefore they cannot be the same thing.
How is this even a question?
genuineoriginal
New member
You can deny the truth, and that will lead you int the error that you have been preaching.
beloved57
Well-known member
I already showed it from my OP and points thereafter. But its been ignored
Then you should be able to reinforce those points, and not have to constantly repeat yourself ad nauseum that you're correct.
musterion
Well-known member
Post your proof again in bullet point fashion, please. I insist that God, who does not lie, would not place in stark opposition things that are secretly the same thing. I know that because He does not author confusion. You do.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
This topic is one of the most frustrating to deal with for anyone who understands linguistics and translation.
Faith is a NOUN. Belief is that same NOUN. Faith comes from Greek (pistis) through Latin (fide). Belief comes from Greek (pistis) through German (gelauben).
NOUNS are not VERBS. Things (nouns) do. Nouns verb.
Pistis is a Greek anarthrous noun. Anarthrous nouns are NOT an English grammatical construct, and English has a difficult time translating them, most often meaning most English speakers transform the nouns into verbs as the OP has done.
Faith is a noun that has all the actions of believING within it as a qualitative characteristic and internal functional activity.
For example, humans don’t make cellular phone calls; at least not directly as the object that accomplishes the call. The phone does the activity of calling, because it is the hardware with software to interface with the cellular network (CDMA or GSM). So it is only because man has the thing that does the calling that man can make a cellular call.
This is the same with faith as a NOUN that is the gift of God, and it comes OUT OF (ek) the NOUN of hearing, with is to be understood as the report or message; and that by means of the Word of God. Romans 10:17 is ALL NOUNS: faith, hearing, Word.
Faith is the thing believed. Hearing is the thing heard. There is an intrinsic passivity in this wherein it is faith that believes the thing believed as the thing heard, which is the very Word of God.
Any word and report will produce “a” belief. But faith in this passage is articular, meaning “the” faith. “This” faith. It’s particular, so it’s articular.
As a thing given by God via His Word and the message thereof/therefrom, faith comes out of that message. Pistis (faith), the NOUN is NOT pisteuo (believe), the verb. Nouns aren’t verbs. So faith is NOT a verb, though it does have all internal latent activity within it to come forth into the external actING that is believING.
So believING is a verb that inevitably comes from the noun of faith. But that believING will always be in accord with the thing heard and the thing believed, both of which are the result of the Word itself being the source and means of the message and the belief.
God does the action of providing man the noun of faith that has all attendant believING within it to come forth into inevitabe works of faith. This means the quality of the works are then of faith and not (of) sin (the state of being).
Erroneously transforming Greek nouns into English verbs is likely the greatest source of false and divergent doctrine in modernity.
FAITH IS NOT A VERB, SO IT CANNOT BE A WORK.
Faith is a NOUN. Belief is that same NOUN. Faith comes from Greek (pistis) through Latin (fide). Belief comes from Greek (pistis) through German (gelauben).
NOUNS are not VERBS. Things (nouns) do. Nouns verb.
Pistis is a Greek anarthrous noun. Anarthrous nouns are NOT an English grammatical construct, and English has a difficult time translating them, most often meaning most English speakers transform the nouns into verbs as the OP has done.
Faith is a noun that has all the actions of believING within it as a qualitative characteristic and internal functional activity.
For example, humans don’t make cellular phone calls; at least not directly as the object that accomplishes the call. The phone does the activity of calling, because it is the hardware with software to interface with the cellular network (CDMA or GSM). So it is only because man has the thing that does the calling that man can make a cellular call.
This is the same with faith as a NOUN that is the gift of God, and it comes OUT OF (ek) the NOUN of hearing, with is to be understood as the report or message; and that by means of the Word of God. Romans 10:17 is ALL NOUNS: faith, hearing, Word.
Faith is the thing believed. Hearing is the thing heard. There is an intrinsic passivity in this wherein it is faith that believes the thing believed as the thing heard, which is the very Word of God.
Any word and report will produce “a” belief. But faith in this passage is articular, meaning “the” faith. “This” faith. It’s particular, so it’s articular.
As a thing given by God via His Word and the message thereof/therefrom, faith comes out of that message. Pistis (faith), the NOUN is NOT pisteuo (believe), the verb. Nouns aren’t verbs. So faith is NOT a verb, though it does have all internal latent activity within it to come forth into the external actING that is believING.
So believING is a verb that inevitably comes from the noun of faith. But that believING will always be in accord with the thing heard and the thing believed, both of which are the result of the Word itself being the source and means of the message and the belief.
God does the action of providing man the noun of faith that has all attendant believING within it to come forth into inevitabe works of faith. This means the quality of the works are then of faith and not (of) sin (the state of being).
Erroneously transforming Greek nouns into English verbs is likely the greatest source of false and divergent doctrine in modernity.
FAITH IS NOT A VERB, SO IT CANNOT BE A WORK.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
BelievING is, indeed, a verb. But that’s pisteuo, the verb.
Faith is a NOUN. Faith is pistis, not pisteuo.
Things (nouns) do (act). Nouns verb.
Faith believes. The only reason man believes is because God gives man the noun of faith. Faith then believes and man has the thing that does this believING. Man doesn’t believe. Faith does it. Man is given this thing so that by having it as a gift then man can believe.
Belief is a noun, and corresponds to faith exactly. Belief came from Greek (pistis) through German (gelauben). Faith came from Greek (pistis) through Latin (fide). They’re the same word from the same source in different English forms.
Neither belief nor faith are a verb. Faith is not a work. Faith is the thing given by God to man so that man may believe. Without that thing, man cannot accomplish the believING of the Word.
The source of faith is the very Word (Rhema) of God. One thing gives the other thing as a gift to man.
BelievING is indeed a work. But faith is belief, not believING. Nouns aren’t verbs. And believING is God’s work in and through man because it inaugurates salvation on our behalf within us.
This is simple and basic linguistics that anyone should be able to understand.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I certainly did, yes.
Nouns aren’t verbs. Faith is not believING. Faith is not a work. Nouns aren’t verbs. Nouns are the source OF the verbs.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
If you’ll read my above posts, you’ll see there is nothing to discuss (unless you want to futily argue, for some deluded reason, that nouns are verbs; which is likely what you’ll do rather that be able to see and admit that you are in error because of ignorance of basic linguistics).
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
But your OP fallaciously conflated the noun faith with the verb believING. Nouns aren’t verbs. Verbs are actions. Works. Nouns are things. Nouns aren’t works. Faith is not a work. Faith accomplishes the believING because it has all aspects of the actING within itself as a noun.
Tables don’t do the action of “tabling” by holding up whatever they were designed to support. Dining tables aren’t tabling by their passive ability to hold up dishes and food and beverages, etc. It’s an aspect of the state of being as a kind of table. Tables aren’t “tabling”. Tabling isn’t even a verb.
Faith is NOT a work. Nouns aren’t verbs.
Are you getting this yet?
In Hebrew, we have the word aman and in Greek pistuo both these words convey exactly the same meaning. The English translaters used three words that convey diffenet meanings in the translation. They had no experiance of what the original words conveyed and so the inserted one of the three words willy nilly. only occasionally using the correct word that conveyed what the original Greek and Hebrew conveys. The three words in English are faith, belief and trust. Only one is loaded with saving value.
Just like you, chasing your tail trying to figure out something you've never experianced.If it wasn't so pitifull I would laugh, loudly.
Just like you, chasing your tail trying to figure out something you've never experianced.If it wasn't so pitifull I would laugh, loudly.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
You forgot to differentiate between grammatical forms, as would be expected.
Nouns aren’t verbs, whether it’s Hebrew or Greek (or English or any other language).
(But thanks for confirming all I said by saying “...chasing your tail to figure out SOMETHING you’ve never experienced.” That someTHING is a noun. Thanks for unwittingly endorsing all I’ve said via your ignorance.)
This isn’t hard. Nouns aren’t verbs. Both the Hebrew and Greek texts differentiate between nouns and verbs, as does any English translation. Most just convert nouns to verbs by mental concept because English is limited in how it expresses most things.)
I thought I had you on ignore. I know for an absolute fact there is nothing that you have to babble about that I want or need to read. Like wise there is no truuth that I post that you could possibly comprehend.
PROBLEM RECTIFIED:This message is hidden because PneumaPsucheSoma is on your ignore list.
beloved57
Well-known member
Denial. Faith and believing are the same, believing is a verb