Right Divider
Body part
This should be so obvious and yet Churchianity teaches that "it's all the same".
Is Baptism a requirement for Salvation
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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heir
TOL Subscriber
Please don't lump me in with Jerry. I take the Lord's time to respond with you and I would expect the same toward me. As to the bolded above: Matthew 10:23 KJV
Here are two gospels in one verse (Galatians 2:7 KJV). There are several gospels in the Bible. Gospel=good news. All of those gospels in the Bible cannot be the good news of your salvation, but one is. What is it? What is the gospel of YOUR salvation? If you respond correctly and I can show by the scriptures that it was before a mystery, will you believe it?
genuineoriginal
New member
That is describing how the faith of a believer is shown by the acts of the believer and those acts provide evidence of God to those who do not know Him.
Look at the rest of the chapter.
Hebrews 11 is all about the acts of various believers in the Old Testament.
genuineoriginal
New member
A person can will himself to believe something different if the person changes his frame of reference
5 + 5 = 10 in base 10
5 + 5 = a in base 16
5 + 5 = 12 in base 8
Each of these is true and provable.
That is why the evidence provided by the acts of believers is so important.
| Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary. ~St. Francis of Assisi |
Right Divider
Body part
That is just dumb.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course my words were in regard to base 10. But you just ignored the evidence from the Bible which I gave you:
In the following passage we can see that being "born of God" is not dependent on a person's will:
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).
A person's new birth has nothing to do with a person's "will" but at the same time that person is born again by believing the word of truth, the gospel:
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
A person is born of God when he believes the gospel and the Apostle John tells us that man's "will" plays no part in being born again. Therefore, that proves that believing is not a function of the will.
Your silence speaks volumes!
genuineoriginal
New member
Jesus' words prove that believing is a function of the will.
Matthew 21:32 32 [JESUS]For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.[/JESUS] |
Mark 1:14-15 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, [JESUS]The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.[/JESUS] |
If believing is not a function of the will, then God destroyed people in Egypt for no reason instead of for refusing to believe.
Jude 1:5 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. |
genuineoriginal
New member
I provided verses that showed that your proof texts do not show the whole story and that your conclusions were in error because you failed to consider the complete testimony of scripture.
ttruscott
Well-known member
This is NOT the point! The point is that faith AS A HOPE is a choice between accepting GOD at HIS word or rejecting HIM as false and a liar. It is a choice between accepting Christ as our saviour or to reject him as a charlatan and a liar. 5+5=10 is an axiom, a self evident truth, but the Deity of YHWH and the fact that salvation is only found in Christ is not... Our ability to believe can go either way as reality proves...the many reject these beliefs on faith and the few accept them by faith.
Use the English word faith instead of belief which can also mean proven and you will see how this got confused.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Once again you refuse to deal with the verses which I quoted!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When a person hears the gospel he either believes it or he doesn't. No one chooses to believe but instead they just believe the gospel. Let us look at the answer given in the following passage by Paul and those with HimL
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
They didn't answer by saying "choose to believe" but instead they simply said "believe."
No one has even attempted to answer the following which proves that believing is not a function of the will:
In the following passage we can see that being "born of God" is not dependent on a person's will:
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).
A person's new birth has nothing to do with a person's "will" but at the same time that person is born again by believing the word of truth, the gospel:
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
A person is born of God when he believes the gospel and the Apostle John tells us that man's "will" plays no part in being born again. Therefore, that proves that believing is not a function of the will.
Perhaps you will be the first person who actually addresses these verses.
Greetings again Jerry,
Firstly I would like to correct my previous Post as I wrote the opposite sense to what I intended. After quoting Galatians 2:7-9, I meant to say:
I suggest that this did not exclude Peter and John from preaching to the Gentiles and we have the record concerning Philip with the Samaritans and the Eunuch and Peter with Cornelius and his company.
Kind regards
Trevor
Firstly I would like to correct my previous Post as I wrote the opposite sense to what I intended. After quoting Galatians 2:7-9, I meant to say:
I suggest that this did not exclude Peter and John from preaching to the Gentiles and we have the record concerning Philip with the Samaritans and the Eunuch and Peter with Cornelius and his company.
I agree more or less with the sequence that you have stated. I disagree that there are two different gospels, as the NT Scriptures simply use the term “the gospel”.
Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings again “heir”,
Kind regards
Trevor
I was saving thread space when mainly the comment and the reply is much the same. Matthew 10:23 does not indicate that they would only preach to the Gentiles after the return of Jesus. The command to preach to all flows down to us as well as the Apostles, and this is before the second coming. Some of the brethren in my meeting have preached the gospel and supported the believers in numerous countries over many years.
I do not read Galatians 2:7-9 to say that there are two different gospels, but two areas of activity. One of the passages that I like to quote concerning the gospel and salvation is Acts 8:5-6,12, the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Name. I reinforce this by also showing that this was the Gospel that Paul preached Acts 28:30-31. I also refer to the speeches by Peter in Acts 2 and Acts 3 which give some of the detail of the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ and the things concerning the Kingdom, and these two items represent a summary of the One Gospel. I accept and believe the teachings contained in Acts 2 and 3.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The word "gospel" is a translation for a Greek word which means "glad tidings" or "good news."
The "good news" which was preached to the Jews during the Acts period and resulted in those who believed it being born of God is the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (Jn.20:30-31, 1 Jn.5:1-5).
The "good news" which was preached to the Gentiles during the Acts period concerns the fact that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24, Col.1:5-6).
Both are "good news" or gospel but they are not the same gospel.
genuineoriginal
New member
I provided verses that showed that your proof texts do not show the whole story and that your conclusions were in error because you failed to consider the complete testimony of scripture.
Stop trying to claim that your tiny piece of the story is the whole story.
Find the verses that seem to contradict your current conclusions and use the ability to reason that God gave you to move beyond your myopia.
genuineoriginal
New member
The preaching of Paul and Barnabus ties the gospel Paul preached with the kingdom, proving that the "gospel of grace" is linked to the "gospel of the kingdom" and should not be wrongly divided away from it.
Acts 14:21-22 21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. |
Amen Jerry, salvation is not by man's will because if it is it has to be by their works and that is why they won't address the truth of scripture you provided because if they have to let their works for salvation go they are condemned.
How is though that we don't choose to believe?
The point is this...genuineoriginal needs his work of water baptism that he chose by his own will to be saved.
The gospel of Christ is always linked and grace has always been there and will be through any dispensation even throughout eternity. You need to work that out.
genuineoriginal
New member
Protestants think so much about "works salvation" that they keep missing the mark on that point.
I do not believe in doing works for salvation.
I believe that you can only condemn yourself by doing wicked works but you cannot save yourself by doing good works.
That is what the scriptures tell us.
Being baptized will not save me, it is an outward act prompted by an inward belief.
The Apostle Paul said this:
Romans 10:13 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. |
Do you believe you can be saved without calling upon the name of the Lord?
I don't.
Do you believe calling on the name of the Lord is "works salvation"?
I don't.
Here is how to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.
Psalm 6:4 4 Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. |
genuineoriginal
New member
I know what the scriptures teach and know that you are misusing the word "dispensation" because of the foolishness of Darby and the like.