genuineoriginal
New member
Romans 3:29 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: |
Is Baptism a requirement for Salvation
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That answers nothing and if you think it does you are totally confused.
What Paul refers to "the mystery" is referred to in the following verse by Paul:
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (Ro.16"25-26).
This is speaking about preaching the gospel to the unsaved. The "mystery of Christ" can only be understood by those who have already been born again and are no longer what Paul calls the "natural man":
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
In the following verse Paul is speaking of the "gospel" which was kept secret since the world began:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).
If the "princes of the world" would have known the "purpose" of the Cross they wouldn't have put the Lord Jesus to death. So "the mystery" is not the same thing as the "mystery of Christ," which is strictly in regard to the Body of Christ, and not to the fact that believers are redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb (1 Pet.18-19).
ttruscott
Well-known member
If sanctification in this verse is chosen you to salvation by setting you apart by the spirit , I wholly concur. My reservation was if the use of sanctification meant on the order of "To make perfect in righteousness, perfectly in accord with GOD's character and plans", the full meaning of holy.
Yes. I accept that upon our free will expression of faith, our unproven hope in HIS word, we were set apart by the Holy Spirit, a setting apart called election in ordinary theology.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Believing anything is not a function of a person's "will."
Instead, what a person believes is based on the "evidence" which he has at his disposal:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).
All people should believe the gospel since it comes in power and in much assurance and in the Holy Spirit:
"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance" (1 Thess.1:5).
That proves that the gospel itself is the "evidence" that it is true and only those who "resist the Spirit" (Acts 7:51) do not believe the gospel.
Greetings again “heir”,
Mark 16:15–16 (KJV): 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Matthew 28:18–20 (KJV): 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Acts 1:6–8 (KJV): 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Romans 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Galatians 1:6–9 (KJV): 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Kind regards
Trevor
The Apostles were commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel the gospel to every creature, thus teaching all nations, not just to the Jews:
Mark 16:15–16 (KJV): 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Matthew 28:18–20 (KJV): 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Acts 1:6–8 (KJV): 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The Apostles were to preach the gospel and there is no indication that there were two different gospels:
Romans 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Galatians 3:16, 26-29 identifies the Gentiles of Galatia as the inheritors of the Abrahamic promise concerning the land Genesis 13:14-15. They had heard Paul preach the one Gospel, and they had then been baptised into Christ by water baptism. There are not true gospels:
Galatians 1:6–9 (KJV): 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then why didn't they?
genuineoriginal
New member
Believing has to be subject to a person's will, or else God was unjust in counting Abram's belief as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. |
heir
TOL Subscriber
As with everything with God, there was an order for them. The apostles were under this command of the Lord:
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
until
Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
The "go ye therefore", when they will go and teach all nations is when the Lord returns (second coming) with "all power"...
As to now (nothing to do with what was and will go on in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV) given the dispensation of the grace of God to us (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV). We are partakers by the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 3:6 KJV) and our only baptism is identification BY ONE SPIRIT IN ONE BODY (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). Where we are concerned, the Spirit is the baptizer, not Jesus "with the Holy Ghost", by man (like John the Baptist or Peter) in water (a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins), or fire as in other places in the Bible. Our baptism is unique to just the church, which is His Body!
You keep saying "the apostles" as if every time any apostle in the Bible is mentioned or separated unto a gospel, it includes all of them. What does verse 1 of Romans 1 say? Does it say "the apostles" or does it say "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,"? Why "the gospel" talk as if there is only one? Since you cited Romans, I'll use them to demonstrate more than one gospel.
The Romans had a faith in the gospel of God/the WHO of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:1-4 KJV that's one gospel) but needed to be established by Paul's gospel/the gospel of Christ/the WHY of the cross. It's the purpose of Paul's letter to them (Romans 1:9-15 KJV)! Paul took the first 8 chapters of Romans to describe it. To summarize the WHY of the cross in one verse in Romans, I would send you to Romans 4:25 KJV. That gospel (Paul's gospel) was before a mystery kept secret until revealed to and through and committed to Paul by God only be wise (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV). None of the above in Romans, (with the exception of the gospel of God) has to do with the gospel of the kingdom in time past or ages to come in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews through Revelation when it will be preached again (not to mention the everlasting gospel preached by angels in Revelation). You need to rightly divide the gospel of YOUR salvation with those. What is the gospel of YOUR salvation?
No, the covenant of promise to which the Gentiles to whom Paul was first sent (including the Galatians) were benefactors is a blessing for blessing Israel according to Genesis 12 and the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
...
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
"one gospel" is a made up term and it won't fly here. The Galatians were not baptized "by water" as you say, but identified Into Christ's death (Romans 6:3-4 KJV). That only happened for them and us by extension "by one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV), not by water!
In the passage you cited, there are no false gospels only very real gospels that were being preached. "Unto you" the Galatians, had any of those other gospels been preached to them as unto them, it would have been a perversion of the gospel of Christ which is exactly what the Galatians were being bewitched to believe as they were being constrained to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses (Acts 15:5 KJV) all in keeping with other gospels in the Bible but not Paul's gospel).
All of the Bible does not say all the same thing to the same people anymore than we are all going to the same place. You must 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that blessings from the LORD are not a result of a person's will:
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Ro.9:16).
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).
genuineoriginal
New member
Are you shifting the goal posts to avoid admitting that a person's belief is subject to a person's will?
The very heart of the gospel is that mankind can choose to believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved.
Romans 10:9-11 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. |
God will not save everyone that professes to believe, but God will not save anyone who does not believe.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No I am not. All you are doing is trying to change the subject in the hope that no one will see that you had no answer to the following verses which demonstrate that a person's blessing from God are not based on a person's will:
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Ro.9:16).
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).
genuineoriginal
New member
Here is where I came in.
You made the unsupportable statement that a person't belief is not a function of a person's will, now you refuse to address your error.
You are taking that verse out of context.
Romans 9:13-16 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. |
Paul makes reference to what God said to Moses.
Exodus 33:17-19 17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. |
God is doing something special for Moses because Moses has found grace in God's eyes.
God said He would proclaim the name of the Lord before Moses and make His goodness pass before Moses.
That happened just a few verses later:
Exodus 34:5-7 5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. |
Moses recounted this visitation by God to the children of Israel when they had reached the Jordan river and explained who the thousands are that God said He would have mercy upon.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. |
Moses stated that the ONLY people God shows His mercy upon are those that love Him and keep His commandments.
Free-will is primarily the ability to choose whether you will love God and the ability to choose whether you will obey God.
Do not make the mistake of thinking nothing you do can affect whether God will show you mercy or not.
And this mystery that was hid in Christ you bestow, in other threads, to believers before Christ gave His life at the cross to reveal the mystery. In your own words and the scripture you just referenced says it was not possible. Eternal life in Christ was ushered in at the cross and not possible to receive before. If it was possible to receive before then there would have been no need for the cross. If we must believe the mystery in Christ how did those before the mystery was revealed receive the power of it?
In essence you are saying they before the cross did not have to believe the mystery but after the cross it has to be believed. How is that just? Does God respect persons? Does God give blessings concerning belief to one over another, I think not.
You then are liken to a calvinist which holds God is a respector of person by choosing one over another without regard to choice concerning the finished gospel of the cross of Christ.
Both believe-isms hold things in common. One common is grating the power of the cross without/before Christ accomplished His sacrificial work. The second common is excusing and condemning when only God has he power to do so.
The mystery is in Christ and even Christ did not come to condemn, He came to save by displaying His love for us in a mystery revealed and not know before.
Righteousness is another problem. There is none righteous, no not one. No one before the cross can declare it or any after in reality. One can choose the righteousness of Christ, and if they do, then they should declare righteousness is His. Before the cross God said certain men were righteous but it was their righteousness by their works or/and their faith, it was their righteousness plain as day. If if was their righteousness and if words have meaning it is self righteousness. Where man is concerned after the cross, now, there is none righteous, no not one.
Anything that a man can do and I mean anything, now, is filthy rags because the mystery revealed at the cross is the righteous One. Rituals like water baptism, circumcision of the flesh, etc.. have been displaced and are operations of God in Christ not the work of men. The power of God displayed by believers now is to preach Christ crucified and give to God through the sacrifice of Christ what is His. It's the righteousness of Christ, the faith of Christ, the works of Christ, etc..for all that choose it.
ttruscott
Well-known member
If we have a choice to believe YHWH is our Creator GOD or to reject this belief and believe HE is a false god, then yes, our belief is a function of our will, our ability to choose.
genuineoriginal
New member
If there really is none righteous, no not one, then the Bible is filled with false statements about righteous people.
If the entire Bible is true, then that verse must have suffered from being misinterpreted and misused.
| Are There Really None Righteous? The none righteous not even one phrase has been horrible misused and the image of a Christian has been distorted thereby. the frequently quoted verse from Romans 3:10 which states that there is no one that is righteous. That verse reads: As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one .... Because this verse is so universally known among those who profess salvation and claim to believe the Bible, it is important to examine this carefully.it becomes apparent that there are numerous examples of actual named people who were righteous. Please note the following Scriptures: This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. (Gen 6:9) Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. (Mat 1:19) Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. (Luke 2:25) And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (Mat 23:35) and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) (2 Pet 2:7,8) one must repent (turn from his sins) or he will perish. Hence, the faith in Jesus that is needed to be considered righteous is a trusting and submitting faith - one that obeys. Furthermore, it is imperative to endure to the very end of your life to enter God's paradise kingdom (Mt. 10:22; Heb. 3:14 and Rev. 2:10,11). If you are a real Christian now, you are righteous, but sin can change that righteous standing and bring you to your spiritual death, just like it did for both Adam and Eve. |
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That makes no sense--"a choice to believe."
The fact is that a person either believes the gospel or he doesn't. Here is the description of Biblical faith:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).
The gospel itself provides "evidence" that it is true because it comes not in word only, but in power and with much assurance and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5). Since the gospel is absolutely true and comes with the "evidence" that it is true then all people should believe it. The only people who hear it and do not believe it are those who "resist the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51).
A person cannot "will" himself to believe that five plus five is anything but ten because the "evidence" he possesses tells him that five plus five is ten. A person believes what he believes because of the "evidence" which he has at his disposal and not because he just decides one day to "will" himself to believe that something is true despite the fact that he has no evidence to indicate that it is true.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You just refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus said in the following verse before the Cross:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
Please tell me why I should believe you since the Savior Himself directly contradicts your assertion.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In the following passage we can see that being "born of God" is not dependent on a person's will:
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).
A person's new birth has nothing to do with a person's "will" but at the same time that person is born again by believing the word of truth, the gospel:
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
A person is born of God when he believes the gospel and the Apostle John tells us that man's "will" plays no part in being born again. Therefore, that proves that believing is not a function of the will.
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Greetings again Jerry and “heir”,
Galatians 2:7–9 (KJV): 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
I suggest that this excluded Peter and John from preaching to the Gentiles and we have the record concerning Philip with the Samaritans and the Eunuch and peter with Cornelius and his company. We have no record of the work of the other 10 Apostles and they could have preached to other Gentile areas and audiences not covered by Paul. John seems to have outlived both Paul and Peter and it seems that he was active with the Seven Congregations of Asia Minor, and these included Gentiles.
Kind regards
Trevor
We do have the following information concerning James, Cephas (Peter), and John:
Galatians 2:7–9 (KJV): 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
I suggest that this excluded Peter and John from preaching to the Gentiles and we have the record concerning Philip with the Samaritans and the Eunuch and peter with Cornelius and his company. We have no record of the work of the other 10 Apostles and they could have preached to other Gentile areas and audiences not covered by Paul. John seems to have outlived both Paul and Peter and it seems that he was active with the Seven Congregations of Asia Minor, and these included Gentiles.
Although the above needs more explanation, I do not accept that Jesus is speaking about the Apostles’ preaching after the Second Coming.
I cannot accept that there are two Gospels here and the rest of your Post. I am not interested in trying to unravel your obscure reasoning.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Twelve certainly understood from the OT prophecies that the Gentiles would be brought to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus as a result of the agency of the nation of Israel:
"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5).
According to prophecy Gentiles will saved as a result to the agency of the nation of Israel:
"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).
Before the disciples would go to the Gentiles they were waiting for Israel to repent and be converted. Since the nation had not repented and turned to the LORD then when the disciples were scattered upon the persecution of Stephen they preached the gospel only to the Jews:
"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only" (Acts 11:19).
None of the Apostles who were originally given the commission to preach the gospel to every creature ever went to the Gentiles except for Peter, and even then it took a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile.
That paved the way for God to convert Paul and he was made the apostle of the Gentiles and a dispensation which had not been revealed in the OT began when Paul began to preach the "gospel of grace" to the Gentiles at Acts 13:46-48.
The gospel which was preached to the whole world was the "gospel of grace" (Col.1:5-6) and not the "gospel of the kingdom" (Mt.24:14).