Inversed Christianity

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Christ established the New Covenant with his blood, trapping sin in the flesh and giving us an opportunity at a new life in him. He died for all, and all shall be given life after death - and then the judgement shall come. Those who did good, taking care of the least of these, doing the will of God - these shall be welcomed into the kingdom. Those who did NOT do good but say things like "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?" - these shall be destroyed.

For eternal life is the reward of good deeds, and one must lose their life - devoting it to God - to save it.

It is a mockery of Christ's sacrifice to assert that he did everything, so nothing is required of us. They use Christ's sacrifice as a justification for continuing to live worldly, sinful lives. But this will not work. Like the man who built on the sand though instructed to build on the rock - they shall learn the errors of their ways too late.

You're just a simple "Worker" just trying to earn his way to eternal life. For that, I say good luck.

 

[PureX]

If you had faith and believed, then you would choose to obey.

"Believed in" what? Religion? If I have faith in God, and in the power of God's divine love to heal us and save us from ourselves, what do I need to believe in some religion for? Who do you think I need to "obey"? I can simply choose to live by that ideal of salvation by divine love that I've put my faith in. No "obedience" is needed. No religion, either.

If you have faith and refuse to obey, then what good is your faith?

Refuse to obey whom? God? God has given me a choice: to live by faith in His divine love to heal and save us from ourselves, or to live in fear and selfishness all my life. "Obedience" isn't on the menu. It's only religion that thinks obedience has anything to do with anything. And that's because authoritarian religionists keep trying to pretend that their religion IS GOD! So they can control everyone through fear and this obsession with blind obedience. Religion is not my God. Religion saves no one. It only traps people in their own delusions of righteousness and some 'magical' salvation in the hereafter.

If you persistently act contrary to your claimed faith, then clearly it does not have any value for you - it cannot save you.

That's true. More true of religionists, though, who claim that God is love, and that love heals, but then immediately fall into religious idolization and false threats whenever they're challenged to act on it. Anyone can proclaim faith in some ideal, but faith is not the proclamation of the ideal, it's the acting on it. It's the living by it. An this is what so many religionists don't want to admit to, because they aren't willing to actually do it. So instead, they proclaim that faith is just the proclamation. Not the acting on it. That way they can excuse themselves for not living by it. And they can falsely convince themselves faith is "believing" instead of DOING. And many manifestations of organized religions promote this dishonest nonsense because they want to be the "divine authority": the stand-ins for God in people's lives. They're not interested in healing people through divine love, they're more interested in controlling people through blind obedience to their dictates. And so that's what you see all these religionists here on TOL preaching: blind obedience to the false God of religious authority. And "faith" as a proclamation, instead of action.

At least the non-believer can claim, in good conscience, that they were ignorant; but a believer who acts contrary to his faith has no excuse.

The only people who are ignorant of the healing and saving power of divine love are people who, very sadly, have not experienced it. It is our responsibility to show them that love, so they can experience it for themselves, and will see that it is an option for them to live by, if they so choose. If believing in some religion helps us to do that, fine. But all too often, religion becomes "God" unto itself, and becomes obsessed with "obedience" to itself, and shows no love, mercy, or healing, at all.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Only for people who obey religion, instead of living by faith. If you had chosen faith, you could believe in God regardless of any religion.

I live by faith in the God of the Bible.
You seem to think that the God of the Bible is not God.

Good luck with that when you stand before Him in Judgment before being thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[PureX]

I live by faith in the God of the Bible.

So … no Bible, no God. Right? By your own words.

That means that the Bible IS YOUR GOD, because without it, there is no God … for you. Your faith isn't in God, it's in the Bible depiction of God.

You seem to think that the God of the Bible is not God.

Yes, I do think that. Because the men who wrote the scriptures didn't know any more about God than you, me, or anyone else, does. They were simply writing about God as THEIR CULTURE understood and related to God. And I know that their cultural understanding of God is not God, itself. And should it not be treated as though it were, or we become idolators.

Good luck with that when you stand before Him in Judgment before being thrown into the lake of fire.

When reason fails, revert to fantastic threats … that's religion for you.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So … no Bible, no God. Right? By your own words.

No, the Bible is the record of God's words.
His words are not recorded anywhere outside the Bible.

That means that the Bible IS YOUR GOD, because without it, there is no God … for you. Your faith isn't in God, it's in the Bible depiction of God.

My faith is in the Bible depiction of God because the Bible depiction is true and the Bible contains the words of God.

Yes, I do think that. Because the men who wrote the scriptures didn't know any more about God than you, me, or anyone else, does. They were simply writing about God as THEIR CULTURE understood and related to God. And I know that their cultural understanding of God is not God, itself. And should it not be treated as though it were, or we become idolators.

Since you thing the God of the Bible is not God, you cannot be a Christian.

 

[Totton Linnet]

We all are. The power of love to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help heal each other is evident to anyone with eyes to see, a heart to feel, and a mind to think with. It's our path to choose, or not to.

It is not evident to the one who understands the bible....none of the 10 lepers were able to cleanse either themselves or their fellows....your pretty philosophy works, until tragedy strikes

 

[PureX]

No, the Bible is the record of God's words.
His words are not recorded anywhere outside the Bible.

Thus, your belief in God is absolutely dependent upon your belief that the Bible somehow magically contains "God's words". Therefor, no magically inerrant Bible = no God exists, by your thinking. Without your belief in this magically inerrant Bible, you would have no faith in God's existence, at all. Isn't that true?

So really, it's your belief in this magically inerrant Bible that you are calling "faith in God". Not an actual faith in any God beyond and apart from the Bible depiction.

My faith is in the Bible depiction of God because the Bible depiction is true and the Bible contains the words of God.

Yes, you are trapped by your belief in the magically inerrant Bible. Because your belief in God depends on it. Your faith is in your belief in the Bible, not in God. Because without your belief in the Bible, you wouldn't believe in God at all. You wouldn't even have a concept of God to believe in.

Since you thing the God of the Bible is not God, you cannot be a Christian.

When reason fails, resort to condemnation. That's religionist's way.

 

[PureX]

It is not evident to the one who understands the bible....none of the 10 lepers were able to cleanse either themselves or their fellows....your pretty philosophy works, until tragedy strikes

This discussion is not about feats of physical healing. It's about healing the spirit. But you're just groping for straws, now, I think, because you have no reasonable response to offer.

Most forms and expressions of religious Christianity have become spiritually bankrupt because their primary intent is to play the 'authoritative stand-in' for God, to mankind. They are not interested in healing anyone, physically or spiritually. They are only interested in establishing their phony "divine authority" and in imposing and maintaining our blind obedience to that phony authority by any means available.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Thus, your belief in God is absolutely dependent upon your belief that the Bible somehow magically contains "God's words".

You doubt that God's words are in the Bible.
Others doubted as well.

Exodus 4:1 1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee.​

Therefor, no magically inerrant Bible = no God exists, by your thinking.

Don't project your false beliefs on me as if they were my beliefs.

Without your belief in this magically inerrant Bible, you would have no faith in God's existence, at all. Isn't that true?

No.
I believe God exists and the God gave us His word in the Bible.

So really, it's your belief in this magically inerrant Bible that you are calling "faith in God". Not an actual faith in any God beyond and apart from the Bible depiction.

You keep calling the Bible, "this magically inerrant Bible."
Why is that?

Is it because you can't believe in God, so you attempt to mock His word?

 

[Totton Linnet]

This discussion is not about feats of physical healing. It's about healing the spirit. But you're just groping for straws, now, I think, because you have no reasonable response to offer.

Most forms and expressions of religious Christianity have become spiritually bankrupt because their primary intent is to play the 'authoritative stand-in' for God, to mankind. They are not interested in healing anyone, physically or spiritually. They are only interested in establishing their phony "divine authority" and in imposing and maintaining our blind obedience to that phony authority by any means available.

10 sinners cannot either cancel out their own sin and thus heal themselves spiritually nor can they cancel out each one the other fellow's sin....man has not healed himself spiritually in 8, 000 years despite all the religions and philosophies designed for that purpose.

Jesus saves

 

[The Berean]

On this forum and elsewhere it is common place, if not the majority, that I find Christianity completely inversed. For instance: they assert that Christ did everything and that nothing is required of us. They attack the idea that anything is required of us, that we should do any good works or that salvation in any way is dependent upon our actions. They turn everything on its head - for they call themselves Christians: followers of Christ. Yet what they teach and practice is to do nothing, do not do the will of the Lord, do not do good deeds, ignore God's Law, do not follow the commandments. These teachings and commands, they say, have nothing to do with us.

As a result they do nothing, they continue on living worldly lives chasing money, success, power, etc. They effectively use Christ as a justification for this way of living. They pay mouth service to God and so feel justified in continuing to live ungodly lives. The scriptures say that God is Holy so we, his people, should be Holy. They say that Christ is Holy, so there's no need for us to be Holy...

Or, again, we find that their priorities are completely askew. They focus on believing the right things, paying allegiance to the right doctrines - these they say are essential to salvation, to being a true Christian. Like the Trinity. Yet they detatch belief from action. Though the bible declares that faith without works is dead, they do not understand that the role of our beliefs is to guide our actions - and that belief that is not acted upon is meaningless. They place all importance upon doctrines like the Trinity that they don't even claim to understand and call a mystery, and abandon the clear commands of God to love one another, to care for those in need, and to make disciples.

Is it just me, or do you all see this too? If you are among those who say that we should do nothing, that the teachings of Christ and commandments of God have nothing to do with us - how do you justify calling yourself Christian when you abandon everything?

Hi csuguy! I hope things are well with you.

As to your OP I think you may overgeneralizing a bit. I understand what you are trying to day. But I don't think Christianity is an monolithic as you say. I've been a Christian since 1998 and one thing I have learned is that Christianity is one incredibly diverse group of people in terms of beliefs and action. Sometimes it's seems quite overwhelming. I have met Christians who are:

King James Only people
Mid-Acts Dispensationlists
Cessationists
Seventh-Day Adventists
"Jesus is not God" people
Pentecostals
Word-Faith people
Catholics
"Paul" people
Social Justice Warrior Christians
etc...

How people can have so many diverse, and often contradictory, beliefs frome reading the Bible is simply beyond me. Given that, I know plenty of Christians who spend a a large postion of their lives in works of service for the Lord. This can be sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, feeding the poor and elderly, teaching the Bible.

I don't know where you live, what church you attend, or howm any Chrisitans you interact with but do you see a lot of Christians not doing any work for the LORD?

 

[PureX]

Don't project your false beliefs on me as if they were my beliefs.

I'm only mirroring your own proclamations. Your God IS the Bible's depiction of God. Therefor, without the Bible's depiction of God, you would have no God at all. So, your faith is not in God, but in the Bible's depiction of God.

It's very simple. You just don't want to acknowledge it. Your God is the Bible. That's why you have to pretend and insist that it's "God's inerrant words" on every page. Even though it clearly is not.

No. I believe God exists and the God gave us His word in the Bible.

Yet it is the Bible that has given you your whole concept of God, and you do not conceive of the existence of God apart from the Bible. Not the other way around. So what you just posted is not really true. Is it. Your belief in the Bible comes first. And then the Bible tells you what to believe about God. So it is your Bible that is dictating your belief in God. Not God that is dictating your belief in the Bible. Why is it so hard for you to be honest about this, do you think?

You keep calling the Bible, "this magically inerrant Bible."
Why is that?

Because it would require nothing less than a feat of divine magic for human beings write an inerrant book about God.

Is it because you can't believe in God, so you attempt to mock His word?

No, it's because I don't believe in feats of divine magic. Especially when they are being used to justify using man's religion to define and speak for God.

 

[PureX]

10 sinners cannot either cancel out their own sin and thus heal themselves spiritually nor can they cancel out each one the other fellow's sin....man has not healed himself spiritually in 8, 000 years despite all the religions and philosophies designed for that purpose.

Jesus saves

All sins have been "cancelled out". We are forgiven. The question is, do we know it? Do we accept this gift? Will we share this "gift" of forgiveness with others? And then live on in love, and kindness, and generosity with each other?

You're trying to impose impediments on us all that don't exist, because you pay too much attention to religion. (And not enough to the spirit.) Free yourself from the chains of religiosity (sin and guilt and blame), and live in the spirit of Christ (forgiveness and love).

Forget "obedience". It just leads back into the abyss of religion.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It's very simple. You just don't want to acknowledge it. Your God is the Bible.

No, my God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, whose words have been recorded in the Bible.

That's why you have to pretend and insist that it's "God's inerrant words" on every page.

You must have me confused with someone else.

Even though it clearly is not.

Is that why you reject both the Bible and God?

Your belief in the Bible comes first.

Not true.
I rejected the Bible for many years prior to coming to a belief in God.
After I believed in God, then I read the Bible and believed it as well.

it would require nothing less than a feat of divine magic for human beings write an inerrant book about God.

Matthew 19:26 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, [JESUS]With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.[/JESUS]​

I don't believe in feats of divine magic.

Yes, I have already gathered from your statements that you do not believe in any god, much less the God that created the heavens and the earth.

 

[genuineoriginal]

All sins have been "cancelled out".

Are you just making that up, or do you have a source for that belief?

 

[PureX]

You got nothin', as usual. But I think I made my point.

 

[genuineoriginal]

All sins have been "cancelled out".

Are you just making that up, or do you have a source for that belief?

You got nothin', as usual. But I think I made my point.

It is a valid question.

I believe in God and the promises from Him that are found in the Bible.

One of those promises found in the Bible is that my sins will be forgiven.

Since you reject the Bible, I would like to know where you are getting the belief that your sins have been "cancelled out".

 

[PureX]

It is a valid question.

I believe in God and the promises from Him that are found in the Bible.

One of those promises found in the Bible is that my sins will be forgiven.

lSince you reject the Bible, I would like to know where you are getting the belief that your sins have been "cancelled out".

You aren't the least bit interested in what I or anyone else thinks about God, sin, forgiveness, or whatever. All you care about is the fact that I assailed your delusions of Biblical authority and self-righteousness.

 

[csuguy]

"Believed in" what? Religion? If I have faith in God, and in the power of God's divine love to heal us and save us from ourselves, what do I need to believe in some religion for? Who do you think I need to "obey"? I can simply choose to live by that ideal of salvation by divine love that I've put my faith in. No "obedience" is needed. No religion, either.

Your faith in God is a religion. It seems to have become popular for people to hold religious beliefs and then turn around and try to draw illusory distinctions between their belief in God, the supernatural, etc. versus others religious beliefs - claiming that their beliefs aren't "religious," as if it were a dirty word. Robert Pate is one on here who constantly attacks "religion" - but, as with everyone who fallaciously joins this line of reasoning, he simply constructs a straw-man which he identifies as "religion" and attacks it. Religion is very diverse and abstract, encompassing all manners of belief and practice. You might criticize this or that sect or specific religion, but it is quite difficult to pin-down and address religion as a whole.

Refuse to obey whom? God? God has given me a choice: to live by faith in His divine love to heal and save us from ourselves, or to live in fear and selfishness all my life. "Obedience" isn't on the menu. It's only religion that thinks obedience has anything to do with anything. And that's because authoritarian religionists keep trying to pretend that their religion IS GOD! So they can control everyone through fear and this obsession with blind obedience. Religion is not my God. Religion saves no one. It only traps people in their own delusions of righteousness and some 'magical' salvation in the hereafter.

You lack understanding. Love and faith are not contrary to obedience - but rather establish obedience to the Law. We obey not because of fear, but because we love God and our fellow man. We recognize that all the various commandments like do not murder, do not steal, make disciples, etc. are for our benefit and the benefit of those we love. By doing what is right and good, we can live in peace and harmony with one another, resolve conflicts, build each other up, and prosper as a whole. When someone is in need, you help them because you care about their well-being. You reach out to the lost of society so that they maybe brought back, and reconciled with God and man. etc.

While a healthy 'fear'/respect for God is a wise thing, that is not the fundamental basis of the commandments or the reason for our obedience. Rather, as Christ taught, everything rests upon love as its basis. Don't obey because of fear, obey because of love. This is what it means to set your heart and mind on the Spirit. When you make love the center of everything, the Law is not a burden to keep, but is quite natural. If you live for yourself, for worldly desires, then the Law is contrary to your heart and mind and it is impossible for you.

That's true. More true of religionists, though, who claim that God is love, and that love heals, but then immediately fall into religious idolization and false threats whenever they're challenged to act on it. Anyone can proclaim faith in some ideal, but faith is not the proclamation of the ideal, it's the acting on it. It's the living by it. An this is what so many religionists don't want to admit to, because they aren't willing to actually do it. So instead, they proclaim that faith is just the proclamation. Not the acting on it. That way they can excuse themselves for not living by it. And they can falsely convince themselves faith is "believing" instead of DOING. And many manifestations of organized religions promote this dishonest nonsense because they want to be the "divine authority": the stand-ins for God in people's lives. They're not interested in healing people through divine love, they're more interested in controlling people through blind obedience to their dictates. And so that's what you see all these religionists here on TOL preaching: blind obedience to the false God of religious authority. And "faith" as a proclamation, instead of action.

I agree with the sentiment, but must disagree with the use of the term "religionists" to describe this group of people. This is true of some religious groups, not of religion as a whole or even in general. I am religious and I'm most certainly not of that mindset - hence this thread.

The only people who are ignorant of the healing and saving power of divine love are people who, very sadly, have not experienced it. It is our responsibility to show them that love, so they can experience it for themselves, and will see that it is an option for them to live by, if they so choose. If believing in some religion helps us to do that, fine. But all too often, religion becomes "God" unto itself, and becomes obsessed with "obedience" to itself, and shows no love, mercy, or healing, at all.

Again - when you start trying to narrowly define religion like this, you are simply setting up a straw-man. Religion is too diverse. Different religions have different values, end-goals/dreams, etc. They most certainly don't all have love as their basis - few do in fact. Of the major religions I've studied only the Abrahamic Faiths do so, and then Christianity is the most explicit about it.

But yes, it is our responsibility to show them that love, to teach it too them. But love, properly understood, is not some emotional feeling. It is a matter of what you value and how you act upon those values. Namely: valuing the well-being of others, even over your own well-being. It means you try to live in harmony and peace with others, and seek reconciliation when conflict arises, but also are willing to fight and to die to when necessary. The greatest act of love is to give your life to save another. When start applying these principles to the various facets of life and carrying them through to their logical conclusions - you get God's Law. Love is the abstract principle, whereas individual commandments are the application thereof.

 

[csuguy]

I don't know where you live, what church you attend, or howm any Chrisitans you interact with but do you see a lot of Christians not doing any work for the LORD?

I've been to many different churches and sects over the years. Mostly Protestant ones, which is where this philosophy is most rampant, but I've also been to Catholic and Orthodox churches. While certain indivuals maybe actively living the faith - as a whole, the churches have lost their way. They serve no purpose anymore. Churches today are little more than a Sunday social group with membership dues (tithe). They meet up for a few hours, pat each other on the back for believing the right set of doctrines, and they carry on with their worldly lives. This isn't what it means to be a Christian