Inversed Christianity

[csuguy]

On this forum and elsewhere it is common place, if not the majority, that I find Christianity completely inversed. For instance: they assert that Christ did everything and that nothing is required of us. They attack the idea that anything is required of us, that we should do any good works or that salvation in any way is dependent upon our actions. They turn everything on its head - for they call themselves Christians: followers of Christ. Yet what they teach and practice is to do nothing, do not do the will of the Lord, do not do good deeds, ignore God's Law, do not follow the commandments. These teachings and commands, they say, have nothing to do with us.

As a result they do nothing, they continue on living worldly lives chasing money, success, power, etc. They effectively use Christ as a justification for this way of living. They pay mouth service to God and so feel justified in continuing to live ungodly lives. The scriptures say that God is Holy so we, his people, should be Holy. They say that Christ is Holy, so there's no need for us to be Holy...

Or, again, we find that their priorities are completely askew. They focus on believing the right things, paying allegiance to the right doctrines - these they say are essential to salvation, to being a true Christian. Like the Trinity. Yet they detatch belief from action. Though the bible declares that faith without works is dead, they do not understand that the role of our beliefs is to guide our actions - and that belief that is not acted upon is meaningless. They place all importance upon doctrines like the Trinity that they don't even claim to understand and call a mystery, and abandon the clear commands of God to love one another, to care for those in need, and to make disciples.

Is it just me, or do you all see this too? If you are among those who say that we should do nothing, that the teachings of Christ and commandments of God have nothing to do with us - how do you justify calling yourself Christian when you abandon everything?

 

[heir]

On this forum and elsewhere it is common place, if not the majority, that I find Christianity completely inversed. For instance: they assert that Christ did everything and that nothing is required of us.

For salvation, there is no work of ourselves Romans 4:4-5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:5 KJV

There is a work of the ministry (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV), but one cannot serve to be saved. One must be saved to serve. So my advice to every one is get saved and serve!

 

[patrick jane]

=csuguy;4686884
Is it just me, or do you all see this too? If you are among those who say that we should do nothing, that the teachings of Christ and commandments of God have nothing to do with us - how do you justify calling yourself Christian when you abandon everything?

It's just you. We do good works and deeds and love our neighbor but that doesn't save us. We don't preach for people to do nothing. We can do nothing to gain salvation, get it ?

 

[Danoh]

On this forum and elsewhere it is common place, if not the majority, that I find Christianity completely inversed. For instance: they assert that Christ did everything and that nothing is required of us. They attack the idea that anything is required of us, that we should do any good works or that salvation in any way is dependent upon our actions. They turn everything on its head - for they call themselves Christians: followers of Christ. Yet what they teach and practice is to do nothing, do not do the will of the Lord, do not do good deeds, ignore God's Law, do not follow the commandments. These teachings and commands, they say, have nothing to do with us.

As a result they do nothing, they continue on living worldly lives chasing money, success, power, etc. They effectively use Christ as a justification for this way of living. They pay mouth service to God and so feel justified in continuing to live ungodly lives. The scriptures say that God is Holy so we, his people, should be Holy. They say that Christ is Holy, so there's no need for us to be Holy...

Or, again, we find that their priorities are completely askew. They focus on believing the right things, paying allegiance to the right doctrines - these they say are essential to salvation, to being a true Christian. Like the Trinity. Yet they detatch belief from action. Though the bible declares that faith without works is dead, they do not understand that the role of our beliefs is to guide our actions - and that belief that is not acted upon is meaningless. They place all importance upon doctrines like the Trinity that they don't even claim to understand and call a mystery, and abandon the clear commands of God to love one another, to care for those in need, and to make disciples.

Is it just me, or do you all see this too? If you are among those who say that we should do nothing, that the teachings of Christ and commandments of God have nothing to do with us - how do you justify calling yourself Christian when you abandon everything?

Those of us who assert what you have clearly misunderstood, were not the first to assert it.

Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

The damnation there, a reference to the exposure of YOUR same kind of assertion all these centuries later, as being the actual error in the issue.

On the other hand, don't feel too bad - error of some sort is ever par for the course, at some point within one aspect of the faith for or another each person - because finite minds will tend to slip up here and there as to their responsibility to be looking at things from the infinite not from the finite, 2 Cor. 4:18.

Thus, even among those who strongly disagree with your above error, and rightly so; there will be differences in understanding as to what consitutes what those good works which God hath before ordained that the saved, and as a result: sealed saint; should walk in, are, Eph. 2:8-10.

 

[csuguy]

For salvation, there is no work of ourselves Romans 4:4-5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:5 KJV

There is a work of the ministry (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV), but one cannot serve to be saved. One must be saved to serve. So my advice to every one is get saved and serve!

God will render to each person according to their works. Those who do good shall be given eternal life. Those who do evil shall receive wrath (see Romans 2:6-11). Given this, do you propose that there is salvation apart from eternal life? If not then you must admit that salvation is dependent upon our deeds.

Paul here is consistent with the rest of the NT in asserting such. For James tells us that faith without works is dead and cannot save us. Christ tells us that only the one who does the will of the Lord will be saved, that we must lose our lives to save it. If we look at parables of the end times and judgement like the sheep vs goats in Matthew 25, they are judged by their actions with regards the least of these.

To say that our deeds, our works, have no barring on our salvation is quite clearly denounced throughout the NT - including Paul. But you ignore these clear teachings found throughout the NT in favor of cherry-picking this or that verse to give a false-impression of the requirements of salvation.

Yes - Christ is essential to our salvation, without which we would be doomed no matter what we did. But his sacrifice does not automatically lead to salvation for all - though he died for all. For the scriptures are clear that not all will be saved. Rather, through Christ we are given the right to become children of God, reborn. Whether or not we invoke this right is completely dependent upon our decisions here and now: how we live our lives.

In case you missed it I'll ask it again so that maybe you will answer this time: is there salvation apart from eternal life?

 

[chrysostom]

For instance: they assert that Christ did everything

what do you believe Christ did for us?

 

[csuguy]

It's just you. We do good works and deeds and love our neighbor but that doesn't save us. We don't preach for people to do nothing. We can do nothing to gain salvation, get it ?

If you don't preach to do nothing, then you aren't precisely the group that my post was targeting - because there are those who do explicitly say such things: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117606-Helping-others/page2&p=4686062#post4686062. This is only one of numerous times I've heard such things on here and in person.

Though it is simply the teachings you subscribe to taken to their logical conclusion - for you all are constantly denouncing the idea that anything is required of you, mocking works and good deeds, even denouncing it as heresy. The natural result is that people like this will conclude that the idea that you are expected to do anything good is a negative thing, and so they conclude that you are to do nothing.

Additionally, even if you agree that good deeds are a good thing and do try to do them - yet the emphasis is still placed not on devoting ones life to God, but to believing the right things and fitting in good deeds into your otherwise worldly life as you have time. Even the priests are quite worldly - living very comfy lives off of tithes and offerings, while doing little to nothing for the poor and needy. But we are to seek the kingdom of God first - we should all be devoting our lives to carrying out God's will, not to chasing after that raise and such. Yet most people go to church, pay tithe, and that's the end of it.

Christ is essential to our salvation, without which no one would be saved. But it is simply contrary to the testimony of scripture that our deeds play no role in that salvation, that there are no requirements on our part. Hence eternal life is said to be the reward for good deeds (Romans 2:6-11), and that no one will be saved unless they do the will of the Lord (Matthew 7:21-29)

 

[csuguy]

what do you believe Christ did for us?

Christ established the New Covenant with his blood, trapping sin in the flesh and giving us an opportunity at a new life in him. He died for all, and all shall be given life after death - and then the judgement shall come. Those who did good, taking care of the least of these, doing the will of God - these shall be welcomed into the kingdom. Those who did NOT do good but say things like "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?" - these shall be destroyed.

For eternal life is the reward of good deeds, and one must lose their life - devoting it to God - to save it.

It is a mockery of Christ's sacrifice to assert that he did everything, so nothing is required of us. They use Christ's sacrifice as a justification for continuing to live worldly, sinful lives. But this will not work. Like the man who built on the sand though instructed to build on the rock - they shall learn the errors of their ways too late.

 

[csuguy]

Those of us who assert what you have clearly misunderstood, were not the first to assert it.

Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

The damnation there, a reference to the exposure of YOUR same kind of assertion all these centuries later, as being the actual error in the issue.

This has nothing to do with what I've written in the OP. I never asserted that people are doing intentionally doing evil so that good will result from evil. Go back and re-read.

On the other hand, don't feel too bad - error of some sort is ever par for the course, at some point within one aspect of the faith for or another each person - because finite minds will tend to slip up here and there as to their responsibility to be looking at things from the infinite not from the finite, 2 Cor. 4:18.

Thus, even among those who strongly disagree with your above error, and rightly so; there will be differences in understanding as to what consitutes what those good works which God hath before ordained that the saved, and as a result: sealed saint; should walk in, are, Eph. 2:8-10.

Indeed, some error is to be expected. I've never expected people to be in full agreement with me, just as there are few if any I fully agree with. However, there are essentials that are common to us all that need to laid out for all to clearly understand and abide by. Hence we are commissioned with making disciples of all nations, teaching them to live according to the commandments and to do the will of the Lord. Unfortunately, many have been taugt that their deeds have no influence on their salvation - and as a result, they do little to nothing. This is a serious issue for the churches - and is one of the key reasons for its decline.

 

[nikolai_42]

[MENTION=6127]csuguy[/MENTION]

Man wants to "do" quite a bit - or have an excuse to do nothing. That's just the way our fallen Adamic nature is. Either earn God's love, or have no requirement laid on us. The fact is, we were given 10 rules to follow and none of us have been able to do it. So no amount of trying is going to convince God to say "He's okay even though he hasn't been perfect". That's just Romans 3:23. What, then, did Jesus tell us we should "do" (bear in mind that He said this to the crowd that always wanted to "do") :

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:27-29

So really, the whole foundation is not work in that sense. Neither is the goal our work. First of all, Jesus came to relieve men of the burden of works salvation - of trying to "do" to earn favor with God :

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matthew 11:28-29

And what is the goal? Rest.

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:9-11

So really, we aren't the ones working. If we really and truly believe God - if we are really in Him, that is, then we will work. We will fulfill that which He has already prepared for us.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10

But remember, it all hinges on right belief. No amount of doing will get one here (to Hebrews 4:11 or Ephesians 2:10) - only true faith. Only the abiding Word of God will bring one to this. Only the work of God (which is predicated on the Word of God) will accomplish it.

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 5:38

So you see, the foundation of it all is the Word of God abiding in a man. The work is God's. So when we see someone who bears no good fruit (and we need to examine ourselves as well), then the issue is not the works, the issue is the faith.

 

[PureX]

It's just you. We do good works and deeds and love our neighbor but that doesn't save us. We don't preach for people to do nothing. We can do nothing to gain salvation, get it ?

But you have to admit that csuguy has a point. By claiming that there is nothing we can do to gain salvation, we have justified doing nothing to gain it. And there is no small number of "Christians" on this site that, in fact, do nothing to improve their own spiritual condition. They even loathe the idea of being loving, and forgiving, and kind, and generous toward others. They revel, instead, in the idea of violence, and vengeance, and maximum punishments, and in the suffering of others. Love and forgiveness are ideals far from their minds and hearts.

And yet they proclaim their 'Christian faith' the loudest. And insult and demean anyone who dares to contradict their 'unquestionably righteous' religiosity.

Are you really saying that you don't see this? Because I think we all see it. But a lot of us just don't want to acknowledge that so many supposed Christians can behave this way.

 

[jamie]

what do you believe Christ did for us?

He paid the penalty of the second death for all who are willing to accept him.

 

[jamie]

It's just you. We do good works and deeds and love our neighbor but that doesn't save us. We don't preach for people to do nothing. We can do nothing to gain salvation, get it ?

In the parable of the talents, three men were given money to invest. Two of the men earned a profit, but one man rested, i.e., no profit.

 

[nikolai_42]

But you have to admit that csuguy has a point. By claiming that there is nothing we can do to gain salvation, we have justified doing nothing to gain it. And there is no small number of "Christians" on this site that, in fact, do nothing to improve their own spiritual condition. They even loathe the idea of being loving, and forgiving, and kind, and generous toward others. They revel, instead, in the idea of violence, and vengeance, and maximum punishments, and in the suffering of others. Love and forgiveness are ideals far from their minds and hearts.

And yet they proclaim their 'Christian faith' the loudest. And insult and demean anyone who dares to contradict their self-righteous religiosity.

Are you really saying that you don't see this? Because I think we all see it. But a lot of us just don't want to acknowledge that so many supposed Christians can behave this way.

The primary difference between the one in Christ and the one not in Christ is faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Those that want to justify themselves don't exhibit that. Those that know they can't do anything of themselves and are poor in spirit before God may seem the same on the surface but are entirely different. One uses grace as a license to sin - the other rejoices in the grace and mercy shown them by God. But that grace doesn't mean they will necessarily be approved by all men - rather, Christ promised that those who truly follow Him will find themselves hated by many. If the world hated Him, it will certainly hate His disciples. So the focus on being nice etc... - while it has some merit as insight how we treat others and want ourselves to be treated - isn't the final word on ones faith.

 

[Danoh]

Romans 3:8 reads: And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? [f]Their condemnation is just.

This has nothing to do with what I've written in the OP. I never asserted that people are doing intentionally doing evil so that good will result from evil. Go back and re-read.

Indeed, some error is to be expected. I've never expected people to be in full agreement with me, just as there are few if any I fully agree with. However, there are essentials that are common to us all that need to laid out for all to clearly understand and abide by. Hence we are commissioned with making disciples of all nations, teaching them to live according to the commandments and to do the will of the Lord. Unfortunately, many have been taugt that their deeds have no influence on their salvation - and as a result, they do little to nothing. This is a serious issue for the churches - and is one of the key reasons for its decline.

Nope - Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20; Acts 1 commission to the nations is via a redeemed Israel first, Acts 3: 18-26, under the Law, Matthew 23:1-3, Matt. 28:18-20; and is after Matthew 10:23, Isaiah 2:1-5.

Not for us, Acts 21:25; Rom. 6:14-15; Gal. 3:1-3, etc.

Of course, your responsibility as to my word (assertion) on all this is Acts 17:11-12.

You up for at least that much?

You that noble?

 

[jamie]

By claiming that there is nothing we can do to gain salvation, we have justified doing nothing to gain it.

:thumb: This premise is simply a variant of Calvinism.

 

[nikolai_42]

But you have to admit that csuguy has a point. By claiming that there is nothing we can do to gain salvation, we have justified doing nothing to gain it.

One thought on this particular point. The upshot of the alternative (that we can do something) makes us the captain of our own salvation (see Hebrews 2:10). Or maybe just the co-captain. But the issue there is that we then have some trust in our own selves, our own ability, our own goodness (however minimal that may be), our own will to guide us properly. We, then, in some degree, are trusting in ourselves. Many religious Jews of Jesus' day were spoken of as those that "trusted in themselves" (Luke 18:9) that they were righteous. If we don't think we are righteous and we recognize God as being perfectly righteous, then even one (seemingly) small blemish ruins us to stand before God. In fact, one small blemish makes us like the rich young ruler of Luke 18:18-27 who thought he wasn't so bad. But that pride ultimately kept him from coming to Jesus. And the conclusion of that situation? Jesus said that with man, for such a man to be saved was impossible - but with God all things are possible. And immediately before that, Jesus spoke directly to those ones that "trusted in themselves". What was the upshot? The one who lay before God without anything to offer except his uselessness. His utter depravity. His utter need for a Savior. He was the one that was justified before God since he himself could do NOTHING.

Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.
For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:5-9

 

[PureX]

One thought on this particular point. The upshot of the alternative (that we can do something) makes us the captain of our own salvation (see Hebrews 2:10). Or maybe just the co-captain. But the issue there is that we then have some trust in our own selves, our own ability, our own goodness (however minimal that may be), our own will to guide us properly. We, then, in some degree, are trusting in ourselves.

As "children of God", and reflections of our Creator, and especially as Christians who believe in the spirit of God within us, we SHOULD trust in ourselves. We SHOULD trust in that divine spirit within us: the spirit of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity. And we should have faith in these qualities, within, to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help us to heal others. We SHOULD be actively engaged in this mission.

It's the authoritarian religionists that preach that we should never trust in ourselves, but only do as they command. Because THEY have no faith in anything. Not in God, not in us, and not in the power of love to heal us and save us from ourselves. That's why they want to control everything and everyone all the time. That's why they are obsessed with blind obedience. They have no faith.

 

[PureX]

The primary difference between the one in Christ and the one not in Christ is faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Those that want to justify themselves don't exhibit that. Those that know they can't do anything of themselves and are poor in spirit before God may seem the same on the surface but are entirely different. One uses grace as a license to sin - the other rejoices in the grace and mercy shown them by God. But that grace doesn't mean they will necessarily be approved by all men - rather, Christ promised that those who truly follow Him will find themselves hated by many. If the world hated Him, it will certainly hate His disciples. So the focus on being nice etc... - while it has some merit as insight how we treat others and want ourselves to be treated - isn't the final word on ones faith.

That's a distinction based on selfishness, from my perspective.

If the goal of being a Christian is getting one's self into heaven, then why should anyone else care about or respect Christians? They clearly aren't out to do anything for anyone else. And if one is not selfishly afraid for their own imagined afterlife, Christianity is meaningless.

Do you really believe that Christianity is a religion based on such selfishness and fear? Because I don't.

I think the salvation Christ spoke of exists in the here and now (and maybe in the afterlife, too). And it's the here and now that matters to me, and to most other people. A revelation that can't heal us and save us from ourselves in the here and now is of little interest or value to me, and to most other people. Because we need the salvation in this world, and in this time, and in this body. And that's what I believe Jesus was promising. But it doesn't just fall from the sky like magic fiery dust. We have to practice at it. Just as we have to practice at anything that we want to change for the better, about ourselves.

We have to practice at listening to that divine spirit within us. And we have to practice at acting on it: at forgiving others, and at caring about the well-being of others without wanting to control them. We have to learn how to love others without exceptions and expectations. It is our life's work, and in doing it, we will find ourselves healed, and saved from our own fallen natures.

But this TAKES EFFORT. It is spiritual WORK. And I believe every true Christian is being called to do it. And not to just sit in their church pews and proclaim their unquestioned belief in God. So they can presume themselves accepted into heaven.

 

[nikolai_42]

As "children of God", and reflections of our Creator, and especially as Christians who believe in the spirit of God within us, we SHOULD trust in ourselves. We SHOULD trust in that divine spirit within us: the spirit of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity. And we should have faith in these qualities, within, to heal us and save us from ourselves, and to help us to heal others. We SHOULD be actively engaged in this mission.

Emphatically, no. Those who are truly Christ's will in no way trust themselves. They will know the difference between "Christ in you, the hope of glory" and "me" doing the work ("Not I but Christ"). That's why the scriptures can talk so plainly about "I" and "Christ" in separate terms even after one is in Him. The two are still clearly distinct to the believer.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:20

That's why we are to trust so implicitly in Him - because it is His work.

Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 2 Cor 3:1-5

It's the authoritarian religionists that preach that we should never trust in ourselves, but only do as they command. Because THEY have no faith in anything. Not in God, not in us, and not in the power of love to heal us and save us from ourselves. That's why they want to control everything and everyone all the time. That's why they are obsessed with blind obedience. They have no faith.

There are some that do that - yes. But to one in Christ, having a teacher and/or a pastor is a hedge - not a slight to one's autonomy. We certainly all do answer for ourselves, but the teaching and pastoring of the people of God is a ministry that is of the utmost important and was even in the days of Paul.

Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2 Timothy 1:2

Even Paul would have suffered the charge of being overbearing in his pastoring, but he clarified to the Corinthian church what he was doing.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2 Corinthians 1:24

Part of being a shepherd of the flock is having to rebuke. Paul told Timothy that at least twice (1 Timothy 5:20 and 2 Timothy 4:2). Today, however, many would say that this is infringing on "my rights" or being mean and unChristlike. Men want to stand alone - essentially unaccountable to any but (they say) God. But God tells us to submit to the authorities. So in taking the loner stance, one is really not heeding anyone but themselves. There will be abuses - yes. But if one really trusts God, then they will be able to weather those storms and emerge stronger in faith and more fruitful in good works.