Interaction with perfect foreknowledge?

[lee_merrill]

can you give an example of what you mean?

Such as when God makes "all things new," as in the new creation. How can this be free, if the decision to create the world anew is known? Yet how can it be a perfect decision, if there could be disagreement within the Trinity?

And if the perfect decision is unique, then it would also be known, simply by deduction.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Such as when God makes "all things new," as in the new creation. How can this be free, if the decision to create the world anew is known? Yet how can it be a perfect decision, if there could be disagreement within the Trinity?

And if the perfect decision is unique, then it would also be known, simply by deduction.

Blessings,
Lee

the new creation isn't dependent on anything coming to pass, so it will not be changed. in other words, nothing we do or don't do will change God's plan to bring about the new creation. it's something he stated he will do independently of our own plans/actions.

as for the trinity, i do not believe there is ever disagreement between them. they are perfectly united, three in one.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi God_Is_Truth,

the new creation isn't dependent on anything coming to pass, so it will not be changed. in other words, nothing we do or don't do will change God's plan to bring about the new creation. it's something he stated he will do independently of our own plans/actions.

Yes, but God's plans being independent of our plans isn't what is at issue here. I'm asking about knowing the decision of the new creation, doesn't knowing this and similar major decisions make them not free, in the view you are presenting here?

as for the trinity, i do not believe there is ever disagreement between them. they are perfectly united, three in one.

Yes, but not knowing such a major decision, within each member of the Trinity, seems to be a awkward conclusion, and similarly with our decisions, in heaven.

It would make it difficult to plan perfectly, I would say, and thus God still would be susceptible to mistakes of judgment, even in a perfect world, and thus we might not always have the best outcome, even in heaven.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[godrulz]

Hi God_Is_Truth,


Yes, but God's plans being independent of our plans isn't what is at issue here. I'm asking about knowing the decision of the new creation, doesn't knowing this and similar major decisions make them not free, in the view you are presenting here?


Yes, but not knowing such a major decision, within each member of the Trinity, seems to be a awkward conclusion, and similarly with our decisions, in heaven.

It would make it difficult to plan perfectly, I would say, and thus God still would be susceptible to mistakes of judgment, even in a perfect world, and thus we might not always have the best outcome, even in heaven.

Blessings,
Lee

The incarnation of the Word brings unique issues to the God-Man. He voluntarily laid aside the use of His divine attributes (Phil. 2).

God's wisdom and understanding has no limits. His options are limitless. He is omnicompetent and responsive to every contingency. This does not mean that everything that is happening in this garbage can of society is His 'will'. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. If His perfect will was always done, we would not need to pray this.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Yes, but God's plans being independent of our plans isn't what is at issue here. I'm asking about knowing the decision of the new creation, doesn't knowing this and similar major decisions make them not free, in the view you are presenting here?

God is free to change his mind about them if he chooses, so they are free in that sense. however, since he made the decisions independent of our choices, nothing we do will change them. something in God himself would need to change in order to change his current plans about the new creation.

It is very free since it hasn't happened yet. but, it is very unlikely to change since nothing we do or don't do can influence it.

Yes, but not knowing such a major decision, within each member of the Trinity, seems to be a awkward conclusion, and similarly with our decisions, in heaven.

I am saying they do know it. they planned it. there is no freedom if the entire future is closed. an open future does not mean God can't declare his will to do something in the days to come. it just means that it's not something that's already occuring (a present future). an open future is one that really is futuristic. that is, it's undetermined, not presently happening, and incomplete. it's yet to come and what it entails is not yet finalized, because it doesn't exist.

It would make it difficult to plan perfectly, I would say, and thus God still would be susceptible to mistakes of judgment, even in a perfect world, and thus we might not always have the best outcome, even in heaven.

difficult for God?!? :shocked:

Jeremiah 32:17
' Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You

God has infinite wisdom and is more powerful than we could ever imagine.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

an open future doesn't make it any harder for God to plan perfectly. in fact, it gives him more to play with. a closed future has no options, no "maybe's", no "perhaps" and no "if's". in a closed future, what will be will be. God can't even change anything about it. but in an open future, God can work to bring whatever he wants to pass. it gives him more freedom, more places to work, and thus is more likely to give us the best outcome, especially in heaven.

 

[elected4ever]

Ua-OH God made a mistake and changed His mine. Maybe God made a mistake in saving you and me so he will change his mine about that too. Wait a minute, God is perfect. He doesn't make mistakes. However He made a mistake and changed his mine. Gee, God is not trustworthy any more. God must not be God any more so our faith is in vain. Is that what your saying, God-is -truth. If it is then God is not truth any more according to you.We are :dead: if that is true.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Ua-OH God made a mistake and changed His mine. Maybe God made a mistake in saving you and me so he will change his mine about that too. Wait a minute, God is perfect. He doesn't make mistakes. However He made a mistake and changed his mine. Gee, God is not trustworthy any more. God must not be God any more so our faith is in vain. Is that what your saying, God-is -truth. If it is then God is not truth any more according to you.We are :dead: if that is true.

where did i ever say God makes mistakes? further, where do you get the idea that changing ones mind necessarily means one made a mistake?

 

[elected4ever]

where did i ever say God makes mistakes? further, where do you get the idea that changing ones mind necessarily means one made a mistake?

You keep saying God makes bad judgments and changes his mind. God's judgment is faulty according to you. There is not one place in the entire Bible that says God changes his mine and you keep saying that He does.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

You keep saying God makes bad judgments

name one place where i said that.

God's judgment is faulty according to you.

again, where did i ever say God's judgement was faulty?

There is not one place in the entire Bible that says God changes his mine and you keep saying that He does.

not one you say?

Exodus 32:14; 1 Samuel 2:29-30; 2 Kings 20:1–6; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Jeremiah 18:7–11; Jeremiah 26:3; Jeremiah. 26:19; Ezekiel 33:13–15; Ezekiel 20:21–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10; Joel 2:13–14

:doh: looks like the bible does say God changes his mind after all.

 

[lee_merrill]

E4E: You keep saying God makes bad judgments.

God_Is_Truth: name one place where i said that.

Well, doesn't this imply just that?

God_Is_Truth: "... and thus is more likely to give us the best outcome, especially in heaven."

So we then must not always get the best outcome, and that would indicate a mistake, where another alternative would have actually been better.

Exodus 32:14; 1 Samuel 2:29-30; 2 Kings 20:1–6; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Jeremiah 18:7–11; Jeremiah 26:3; Jeremiah. 26:19; Ezekiel 33:13–15; Ezekiel 20:21–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10; Joel 2:13–14

looks like the bible does say God changes his mind after all.

Well certainly, if "nacham" means "change of mind." But "nacham" has other meanings.

Otherwise, these verses also imply that these changes indicate mistakes...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Well, doesn't this imply just that?

God_Is_Truth: "... and thus is more likely to give us the best outcome, especially in heaven."

how do you get "God makes bad judgements" from that? i was basically restating Romans 8:28 and you interpret it to mean "God makes bad judgements" ?

So we then must not always get the best outcome, and that would indicate a mistake, where another alternative would have actually been better.

why do you think there is only one "best outcome" ? with free will and an open future, the outcomes depend largely on what we do or don't do. what we know is that God works with our free will to bring about as much good as possible (Rom 8:28). we trust that God brings to pass the "best outcome" out of what we do ourselves.

Well certainly, if "nacham" means "change of mind." But "nacham" has other meanings.

that's why we look at the context. and for several of those, it contains God declaring one thing and then changing his mind later to do another.

Otherwise, these verses also imply that these changes indicate mistakes...

those verses don't indicate that God made a mistake in the least. changing one's mind doesn't mean one made a mistake either. there are times when we change our mind because we made a mistake, yes. but changing ones mind in and of itself does not mean we automatically also made a mistake.

 

[elected4ever]

name one place where i said that.



again, where did i ever say God's judgement was faulty?



not one you say?

Exodus 32:14; 1 Samuel 2:29-30; 2 Kings 20:1–6; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Jeremiah 18:7–11; Jeremiah 26:3; Jeremiah. 26:19; Ezekiel 33:13–15; Ezekiel 20:21–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10; Joel 2:13–14

:doh: looks like the bible does say God changes his mind after all.

Exodus 32:14 *And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

The word used in Hebrew is the word nacham and that is the word always used when the scripture says God repented. It means to sigh. In a favorable since it it implies sorrow but never change. But this verse does not preclude God knowing in advance and what the thoughts of man were. Never does it say that God made the choice for man. God did not and does not change His mind. God acts in concert with His character and His own word.

1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Pay close attention to the word should. God never said that they would but that they should. What changed? Eli or God? Again , there is nothing that suggest that God did not know what would transpire.

2 Kings 20:1 *¶In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 *Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,
3 *I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
4 *And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
5 *Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
6 *And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

You seem to think that God is goody goody two shoes or something. God manipulates man toward His own will and is justified in doing so. The decision of Hezekiah to ask for mercy was the response that God wonted from him. God still never changes and the passage never states that God did not know every thing prier to the recorded incident and this is done to teach us that we do not know and that we are dependent on Him.

I could go on but this I know to be true. God's foreknowledge does not prevent man's independent and free decisions. It is the hight of arrogances for man to think that God is subject to the fickleness of man. Man cannot manipulate God That is what you suggest every time you say that God changes His mind at the behest of man. NO! NO! NO! God's plan was finished before the foundation of the world. It is that we do not know and not that God does not know. I could go on but that is enough for now.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Exodus 32:14 *And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

The word used in Hebrew is the word nacham and that is the word always used when the scripture says God repented. It means to sigh. In a favorable since it it implies sorrow but never change.

i don't know the Hebrew language very well, but this seems to square with what i've heard around the forum from other people. the only difference is where you say it never means change.

But this verse does not preclude God knowing in advance and what the thoughts of man were. Never does it say that God made the choice for man. God did not and does not change His mind. God acts in concert with His character and His own word.

1. God says he will bring evil
2. people repent
3. God doesn't bring evil

now in the first part, God has in his mind the will to bring evil (Justice) upon the people. but in the last part, he has in his mind not to bring evil. now please explain to me how we get from 1 (where it's in his mind) to 3 (where it's not in his mind) without a change of mind. please explain it, because i don't see how it's possible.

1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Pay close attention to the word should. God never said that they would but that they should. What changed? Eli or God? Again , there is nothing that suggest that God did not know what would transpire.

but you've missed the point. before, in the mind of God, there was blessing and honor for the household. but after they fall, in the mind of God there lies judgement. so unless you equate honor with judgement, there is a change in the mind of God with relation to that household.

You seem to think that God is goody goody two shoes or something. God manipulates man toward His own will and is justified in doing so.

James 4:2
You do not have, because you do not ask God.

i agree that God is not manipulated, but that doesn't exclude God changing his mind on something. in this passage, when God declared that Hezekiah would die, his mind set was that he would die. but also there was the possibility, the thought rather that "if he asks for an extention, i will give it to him". so when Hezekiah did ask, God wasn't being manipulated at all by giving it to him. however, his mind still changed from one of "he will die" to "i am giving him 15 years of life". that's a change of mind.

The decision of Hezekiah to ask for mercy was the response that God wonted from him. God still never changes and the passage never states that God did not know every thing prier to the recorded incident and this is done to teach us that we do not know and that we are dependent on Him.

but there is nothing in the passage to indicate that God does have prior knowledge of the event.

God's foreknowledge does not prevent man's independent and free decisions.

i agree. it's what's in the foreknowledge that prevents it.

It is the hight of arrogances for man to think that God is subject to the fickleness of man. Man cannot manipulate God That is what you suggest every time you say that god changes His mind at the behest of man.

i am not suggesting that in the least and you are constructing a staw man argument if you believe i am.

NO! NO! NO! God's plan was finished before the foundation of the world. It is that we do not know and not that God does not know. I could go on but that is enough for now.

well you can say that God's plan was finished from before time but that doesn't mean it's so. you lack biblical evidence and deny logic, neither of which is reasonable.

 

[elected4ever]

i don't know the Hebrew language very well, but this seems to square with what i've heard around the forum from other people. the only difference is where you say it never means change.



1. God says he will bring evil
2. people repent
3. God doesn't bring evil

now in the first part, God has in his mind the will to bring evil (Justice) upon the people. but in the last part, he has in his mind not to bring evil. now please explain to me how we get from 1 (where it's in his mind) to 3 (where it's not in his mind) without a change of mind. please explain it, because i don't see how it's possible.



but you've missed the point. before, in the mind of God, there was blessing and honor for the household. but after they fall, in the mind of God there lies judgement. so unless you equate honor with judgement, there is a change in the mind of God with relation to that household.



James 4:2
You do not have, because you do not ask God.

i agree that God is not manipulated, but that doesn't exclude God changing his mind on something. in this passage, when God declared that Hezekiah would die, his mind set was that he would die. but also there was the possibility, the thought rather that "if he asks for an extention, i will give it to him". so when Hezekiah did ask, God wasn't being manipulated at all by giving it to him. however, his mind still changed from one of "he will die" to "i am giving him 15 years of life". that's a change of mind.



but there is nothing in the passage to indicate that God does have prior knowledge of the event.



i agree. it's what's in the foreknowledge that prevents it.



i am not suggesting that in the least and you are constructing a staw man argument if you believe i am.



well you can say that God's plan was finished from before time but that doesn't mean it's so. you lack biblical evidence and deny logic, neither of which is reasonable.

Ephesians 1:4 *According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 *Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 *To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 *In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 *Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 *Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

how do you get "God makes bad judgements" from that? i was basically restating Romans 8:28 and you interpret it to mean "God makes bad judgements" ?

I certainly agree with Rom. 8:28! But it seems the Open View tries to have it both ways, with God invincible, and yet he must sometimes change his overall plan. And it seems this would continue in a perfect world, even.

why do you think there is only one "best outcome" ?

God changing his mind implies a different goal had become better than the original goal.

that's why we look at the context. and for several of those, it contains God declaring one thing and then changing his mind later to do another.

Well, I don't know of such a clear instance! These verses have been discussed a lot here.

those verses don't indicate that God made a mistake in the least. changing one's mind doesn't mean one made a mistake either. there are times when we change our mind because we made a mistake, yes. but changing ones mind in and of itself does not mean we automatically also made a mistake.

Well, I think it does, actually, if it means a change in the overall plan. The first plan was not best, after all, and must be abandoned. Having the best of intents does not mean no mistake was made:

From dictionary.com: Mistake: "An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness. A wrong action attributable to bad judgment or ignorance or inattention."

And if God does not know the future, that is lack of knowledge, or ignorance, and does result in wrong or erroneous actions, where we must acknowledge that another action would have been better, and that is what is defined as a mistake.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

I certainly agree with Rom. 8:28! But it seems the Open View tries to have it both ways, with God invincible, and yet he must sometimes change his overall plan. And it seems this would continue in a perfect world, even.

of course he changes his plans! but not because of some miscalculation of his. he changes his plans because we get in the way of them. we mess them up, we fail him, we don't keep out part. that's why he changes his plans. another reason he may change his plans is because we repent. in either case, it's because circumstances changed, not because of anything about God himself.

God changing his mind implies a different goal had become better than the original goal.

no, it means that the best possible outcome has changed due to a change in circumstances.

Well, I don't know of such a clear instance! These verses have been discussed a lot here.

Saul seems to be a pretty good one in 1 Samuel. but maybe we should go to a new thread if we want to discuss that.

Well, I think it does, actually, if it means a change in the overall plan. The first plan was not best, after all, and must be abandoned.

not if it's abandoned because we mess it up and make the plan unavailable to pursue.

Having the best of intents does not mean no mistake was made:
From dictionary.com: Mistake: "An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness. A wrong action attributable to bad judgment or ignorance or inattention."

open theism does not proclaim God to be one with "defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness". that is a straw man argument.

And if God does not know the future, that is lack of knowledge

it's not a lack of anything because the future doesn't exist and is itself nothing actual.

or ignorance,

if God is ignorant of anything (IF) then he chooses to be and it's for the best. but since the future does not exist, he is not ignorant of it.

and does result in wrong or erroneous actions, where we must acknowledge that another action would have been better, and that is what is defined as a mistake.

open theism does not proclaim such things. it says God makes the best decisions at the time they are made. he may regret how they turn out, but that doesn't mean they weren't the best decisions at the time made.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Ephesians 1:4 *According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 *Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 *To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 *In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 *Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 *Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

quoting verses doesn't do a thing for your position since we both read the same bible but come to different conclusions.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Lee: and does result in wrong or erroneous actions, where we must acknowledge that another action would have been better, and that is what is defined as a mistake...

God_Is_Truth: open theism does not proclaim such things. it says God makes the best decisions at the time they are made. he may regret how they turn out, but that doesn't mean they weren't the best decisions at the time made.

Well, we do, too! We root for the Steelers, and they really should have won, for they were the better team, only they didn't do their best, or they just had a lot of fumbles, or whatever happened, it turned out they didn't win. So it would have been better to back the Patriots, though that was the less probable team to come out ahead.

And we call that, rooting for the team that lost, thinking it won't rain, when it does, buying stock in Sterling Steaks at the top of the roller coaster curve, a mistake.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Well, we do, too! We root for the Steelers, and they really should have won, for they were the better team, only they didn't do their best, or they just had a lot of fumbles, or whatever happened, it turned out they didn't win. So it would have been better to back the Patriots, though that was the less probable team to come out ahead.

it would not have been any better to root for the Patriots before they won because at that point both teams were on the same footing. the Patriots were not going to necessarily win and the Steelers were not going to necessarily lose. they both had equal potential (though not necessarily an equal likelihood) of winning the super bowl at that time. thus, you cannot say after the patriots win that it would have "been better" to root for the Patriots all along. it is simply not true.

And we call that, rooting for the team that lost, thinking it won't rain, when it does, buying stock in Sterling Steaks at the top of the roller coaster curve, a mistake.

rooting for the Steelers was not a mistake, nor would voting for the Patriots have been a mistake had they actually lost. you are assuming that because the Patriots won, they always would have won and there was no way they could never not win. that is simply not the case and because of that it was not a mistake in any way to root for the Steelers, though they did not win.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi God_Is_Truth,

Lee: And we call that, rooting for the team that lost, thinking it won't rain, when it does, buying stock in Sterling Steaks at the top of the roller coaster curve, a mistake.

GIT: rooting for the Steelers was not a mistake, nor would voting for the Patriots have been a mistake had they actually lost. you are assuming that because the Patriots won, they always would have won and there was no way they could never not win.

Well, no, I am saying that sometimes the best estimate doesn't turn out best! And thus sometimes the person who bets on the dark horse wins, and thus we need not always take God's advice, because events might turn out better with some other choice, even from his perspective.

Only the Bible says we must always obey the Lord, and that the one who trusts in him will never be ashamed, or disappointed, they will always win, for God knows the outcome, in every instance.

Zephaniah 3:5 The Lord within her is righteous; he does no wrong. Morning by morning he dispenses his justice, and every new day he does not fail...

Blessings,
Lee