I never talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit

[Hoping]

There is no "us" there. I'm not a kingdom Israelite. Neither are you.

In my flesh? Absolutely not! No human is.

Nobody is perfect in the physical sense, (Thanks a ton, Adam and Eve), but we can be perfect spiritually.
Thanks be to God !!!

 

[Hoping]

Bradley, please teach us how 1 John 1:9 and Colossians 2:13 can both be true for a person at the same time without contradicting each other.

May I?
1 John 1:9's confession is a precursor to 1 John 1:7..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Confession, then baptism.

Col 2:13 elaborates on that baptism.

 

[Hoping]

Bradley, how do you interpret the 2 verses below so they do not contradict each other?

James 2:24 - You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Ephesians 2:8,9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

May I?
James 2 describes the proof of ongoing faith in one's life, and Eph 2 discusses the initial product, (conversion), by faith.

 

[musterion]

May I?

no

 

[Hoping]

The Body of Christ did not exist before Paul was saved

Eph 3:6 puts that statement in doubt..."That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

and Jews and gentiles began to be saved on the same basis of grace through faith without works, entirely apart from Israel. It's an entirely new and different organism that hadn't and couldn't exist before.

Jesus broke down the wall between Jew and Gentile but we are still separate?
In the light of Eph 2:13-16, I don't follow.

On the other hand, Israelites who repented to Messiah were born AGAIN. As Jews, they were of Israel and part of the covenants. They were already known to God. They didn't need born, they needed born AGAIN.

Members of the Body can't be born again because they're new creations in Christ. That's why Paul never uses the term.

They are new creations in Christ BECAUSE they were born again.
Rom 6:4-6 describes the process..."
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
The "old" me had to die before a "new" me could exist.

 

[Derf]

Stephen's prayer to Jesus in Acts 7, while he was being stoned to death, doesn't count because Stephen's spirit was on the verge of entering heaven at that time.

Why is Steven's case so special? Your answer seems to fit any number of cases that might be possible. I.e., if a semi-truck is about to hit your car at 70 mph, or you start to have a heart attack, or if the airplane you're in is about to crash.

God could have raised Steven like He did others (like Paul once), or even prevented him from being killed.

So if we can't really tell when we're about to enter heaven, and we're afraid of approaching Jesus at the wrong time, we will likely never pray to Jesus, even though your example says we can, in limited circumstances.

But if Jesus is God, and is also our mediator, why would you want to stop someone from praying to Him?

 

[Hoping]

Although we will talk to Jesus in heaven, we are only authorized to talk to the Father while we are here on earth. There is not a single post-ascention verse where any apostle said anything directed toward Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Stephen's prayer to Jesus in Acts 7, while he was being stoned to death, doesn't count because Stephen's spirit was on the verge of entering heaven at that time.

Acts 7:59,60 - While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Why do you say we are ONLY authorized to talk to the Father?

 

[Jefferson]

So if we can't really tell when we're about to enter heaven, and we're afraid of approaching Jesus at the wrong time, we will likely never pray to Jesus, even though your example says we can, in limited circumstances.

I'm not afraid of "approaching Jesus at the wrong time" because there is no verse that says it's a sin to talk to Jesus while we're in the flesh. I'm just saying I want to be as Pauline as possible and I'm not sure I see any example of Paul addressing his prayers to anyone but the Father.

But if Jesus is God, and is also our mediator, why would you want to stop someone from praying to Him?

I don't have a desire to stop anyone from praying to Jesus. I'm letting people know my reasons for doing what I do. Again, I'm not aware of any verse that says praying to Jesus is a sin. I'm just saying for my conscience sake, I don't want to read into Pauline scripture something that isn't there.

 

[Jefferson]

Why do you say we are ONLY authorized to talk to the Father?

As I said to Derf above, I'm not aware of any verse that says praying to Jesus is a sin. I'm just saying for my conscience sake, I don't want to read into Pauline scripture something that isn't there and I don't see any example of Paul addressing his prayers to anyone but the Father. Do you?

 

[Jefferson]

I am aware of only 3 verses where Paul indicated which specific member of the Trinity he was praying to. In all 3 instances below, he was praying to the Father:

Ephesians 1:17 - [Paul prayed] "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him"

Ephesians 3:14-16 "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man"

Colossians 1:12 - "giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light."

 

[Derf]

I'm not afraid of "approaching Jesus at the wrong time" because there is no verse that says it's a sin to talk to Jesus while we're in the flesh. I'm just saying I want to be as Pauline as possible and I'm not sure I see any example of Paul addressing his prayers to anyone but the Father.


I don't have a desire to stop anyone from praying to Jesus. I'm letting people know my reasons for doing what I do. Again, I'm not aware of any verse that says praying to Jesus is a sin. I'm just saying for my conscience sake, I don't want to read into Pauline scripture something that isn't there.

I don't see any more reason not to pray to Jesus in Paul's letters than in anyone else's writings. Here are a couple places where Paul might be endorsing praying to Jesus:
1 Thessalonians 3:11 (KJV)
Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

Colossians 3:17 (KJV)
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

 

[Hoping]

As I said to Derf above, I'm not aware of any verse that says praying to Jesus is a sin. I'm just saying for my conscience sake, I don't want to read into Pauline scripture something that isn't there and I don't see any example of Paul addressing his prayers to anyone but the Father. Do you?

I saw you indicate being "in the flesh" as part of your reasoning.
But scripture says..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
So if you are Christ's, the "in the flesh" reasoning is invalid.
Paul also notes..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)
I'll add these words by Paul..."And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." (Col 3:17)

 

[Right Divider]

I am aware of only 3 verses where Paul indicated which specific member of the Trinity he was praying to. In all 3 instances below, he was praying to the Father:

Paul also talks about praying to God. Jesus is God.

 

[Jefferson]

I don't see any more reason not to pray to Jesus in Paul's letters than in anyone else's writings. Here are a couple places where Paul might be endorsing praying to Jesus:
1 Thessalonians 3:11 (KJV)
Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

This isn't a prayer.

Colossians 3:17 (KJV)
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

It is only because of Christ that the Father hears our prayers, hence the words, "by him."

 

[Jefferson]

I saw you indicate being "in the flesh" as part of your reasoning.
But scripture says..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
So if you are Christ's, the "in the flesh" reasoning is invalid.
Paul also notes..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)

By "the flesh" I simply meant there is no verse that says it's a sin to talk to Jesus while we are still "alive down here on earth."

I'll add these words by Paul..."And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." (Col 3:17)

Yes, the Father hears us because of the Person and work of Christ (ie. "by him"). But notice the verse says we give thanks "to" the Father.

 

[Derf]

This isn't a prayer.

I think it is. It has the form of a prayer. And the previous verse is talking about praying.
1 Thessalonians 3:10 (KJV) Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

It is only because of Christ that the Father hears our prayers, hence the words, "by him."

That may be true (though it wasn't in the Old Testament), but that's not how the text reads.

 

[marke]

May I?
1 John 1:9's confession is a precursor to 1 John 1:7..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Confession, then baptism.

Col 2:13 elaborates on that baptism.

I don't see how these verses support the doctrinal error of baptismal regeneration.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[marke]

May I?
1 John 1:9's confession is a precursor to 1 John 1:7..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Confession, then baptism.

Col 2:13 elaborates on that baptism.

I assume you meant to reference Colossians 2:12?

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus was 'buried' in a dry cave, not water, but we are not buried in the cave with Jesus. We are in type buried in death with Jesus, which was typified by the rite of water baptism just like Moses' baptism in the cloud and the sea typified the death of the old nature and birth of the new nature in today's Christians and eating the manna typified eating Jesus' body (the Word of God made flesh.)

1 Corinthians 10

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

I assume you meant to reference Colossians 2:12?

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus was 'buried' in a dry cave, not water, but we are not buried in the cave with Jesus. We are in type buried in death with Jesus, which was typified by the rite of water baptism just like Moses' baptism in the cloud and the sea typified the death of the old nature and birth of the new nature in today's Christians and eating the manna typified eating Jesus' body (the Word of God made flesh.)

1 Corinthians 10

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Hoping is one of the many so-called Christians that cannot read "baptism" without thinking that water is involved.

 

[Hoping]

By "the flesh" I simply meant there is no verse that says it's a sin to talk to Jesus while we are still "alive down here on earth."

OK.

Yes, the Father hears us because of the Person and work of Christ (ie. "by him"). But notice the verse says we give thanks "to" the Father.

I do notice the "to Him", but it is in the name of Jesus Christ that we address the Father to begin with.

Is Jesus your Lord?
If we are to trust, obey, love Him, and potentially die for Him, why do you think it inopportune to address Him?