I lost my faith a while back

[Spectrox War]

Have you checked under your couch cushions? :idunno:

No I didn't! Wait a minute. Let me check....... No it's not there.

 

[alwight]

My name is Spectrox. I am from the UK.

Hi Spectrox War,
I live on the Isle of Wight btw.
I never had a faith to lose, you don't miss what you never had I suppose but I sometimes wonder what that would be like.
:cheers:

Watch out for Town Heretic he also believes he is a lawyer. :kookoo:

 

[Spectrox War]

Welcome.

I liken this to marriage. Some people think they are married because they are practicing all the things a married couple does. Most agnostics and atheists get mad at this point and scream "No-True-Scotsman!!"

However, it comes from my own experience and understanding that this is the case.
1) Because I couldn't lose my faith. It would be like denying I was ever married. Of course this leads back to 'thinking' and/or 'knowing' I'm married. Even if you don't see the equating this way, recognize it is exactly how I see it and would be hard-pressed to change my mind/perception over the matter.
2) Because scripture talks about this in the same light. 1 John 2 says if one leaves the faith (loses it), he/she never had it (thus cannot lose what is not possessed). It is my estimation that I am a Christian not so much because I think I have a hold of Christ, but because I know He has a hold of me.

Welcome again to the forum

-Lon

Yes. I've heard the No True Scotsman argument more times than I care to remember. In fact I remember Christians pointing this out to me when I was going through my deconversion. At the time, I felt it was the worst lie imaginable. Now I just think it is a difference of opinion on a process that I was going through.

 

[MaryContrary]

These days I need good evidence before I believe any claim.

So "seen" for you essentially means good evidence, yes?

Maybe? It depends what the nature of the faith is though? And the validity of that faith can only IMO be determined by evidence and reasoned argument. Otherwise, to me, it's just random and meaningless.

It would seem "seen" indicates good evidence and/or reasoned argument as well. :think:

I came by my faith emotionally - and the words of the Bible and Christians around me resonated with me at that time.

Most things grounded in emotion don't last much longer than the emotion. Sad but true.

So you need you some good evidence and reasoned arguments? We have some of that. Plus some weak evidence, stupid arguments and nice dollop of crazy every occasional while just to keep it from being too bland. :thumb:

Welcome to TOL!

 

[Spectrox War]

Hi, SW. I'm sorry to hear that. Just what is it that you believed that you no longer believe? Was there ever a time that you put your trust in the faith OF Jesus Christ? After all, it is His faith that justifies.

Galatians 2:16 KJV Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Of course. I was totally sold on it. The Bible was God's way of getting in touch with his creations. Jesus died for my sins. The lot. I lived and breathed the Bible for several (3?) months before I had serious doubts. I prayed hard for my doubts to be answered. But no answers came.

 

[Spectrox War]

Well, welcome to TOL. I'm sorry that you've supposedly lost something that you didn't love. lain:

I loved it for the first few months then began to have doubts. Then I began to hate some of it. I became a hollow man. Defending the Bible in public, but secretly thinking it was partly wrong and I'd made a mistake.

 

[Spectrox War]

Hi Spectrox War,
I live on the Isle of Wight btw.
I never had a faith to lose, you don't miss what you never had I suppose but I sometimes wonder what that would be like.
:cheers:

Watch out for Town Heretic he also believes he is a lawyer. :kookoo:

Thanks. Did you know everyone in the world could stand together like sardines and fit on the Isle of Wight?

 

[Spectrox War]

So "seen" for you essentially means good evidence, yes?

It would seem "seen" indicates good evidence and/or reasoned argument as well. :think:

Most things grounded in emotion don't last much longer than the emotion. Sad but true.

So you need you some good evidence and reasoned arguments? We have some of that. Plus some weak evidence, stupid arguments and nice dollop of crazy every occasional while just to keep it from being too bland. :thumb:

Welcome to TOL!

Yes. Evidence and reasoned argument works for me.

 

[Town Heretic]

It's actually taken from an old Dr Who episode.

That would have been my next guess. But I think you mean Dr. Whom...ask around.

Where? I don't know. I believed Jesus was my saviour and read the Bible everyday after catching the Christian bug.

I thought you darn Brits had a thing for the dust covered jab. But never mind. So you consider your early brush with faith to be on the order of a communicable disease then. That will make the next part easier.

I was very intense about it for several months. But then I began to read stuff in the Bible that I didn't believe was true or could no longer support.

Sounds more like infatuation than faith. Faith is founded on trust and reliance. Apostasy is predicated on doubt. To quote the Bard, "You can't get there from here." That is, you can't trust and doubt. They're mutually exclusive. So if you found yourself entertaining the latter you never quite possessed the former. You reserved something in the foundation of your faith.

The most common reservation is a variation on pride. It demands that God suit and reconcile Himself to our context instead of examining life's questions within His. That sort of faith is doomed from the start. It's really only a matter of time.

Re: rationality and faith, by degree

I think the rational skeptical part of my brain was not happy with the answers I was getting to questions I had. Answers from other Christians or the Bible itself. I came to the conclusion that I had a delusion. Hey. That sounds like a song lyric!

But not quite an answer to the question and test of your hypothesis. I'll be more succinct, sort of: do you believe that your progress to a more clearly reasoned state is something of a rule steeped in causality or that your faith worked as a bar to that in your particular but not necessarily as the rule?

Re: the problematic

Ignorance is bliss you mean? I am happier that I am more honest with myself and that I listened to myself and had the courage to admit I was wrong.

What I meant is you now have a poorer context relative to any number of things, from a denial (on an intellectual level) of your biological hard wiring for survival, to the inescapable conclusions relating to value and purpose that follow agnosticism or, more particularly, atheism.

Re: hats and tempests

Why? Is there a storm brewing?

Here? Almost always. Sometimes it's only in a teapot, but in any case you'll never really lose it with so many people eager to hand it to you. lain:

Well met. :e4e:

 

[alwight]

Thanks. Did you know everyone in the world could stand together like sardines and fit on the Isle of Wight?

Yes I think so but I hope that never happens, the roads here are bad enough already.

 

[dreadknought]

I loved it for the first few months then began to have doubts. Then I began to hate some of it. I became a hollow man. Defending the Bible in public, but secretly thinking it was partly wrong and I'd made a mistake.

"And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.".............. "And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them."

 

[CabinetMaker]

It wasn't intended as an insult. I was speaking honestly about my own experience now compared to when I had faith.

Do you think a person who has Christian faith is as logical and rational as one who does not? Is there something superior about being logical and rational? Maybe there isn't? Jesus said that people who have not seen but still believe are more blessed than those who have seen and believed (Doubting Thomas story after the resurrection).

I personally don't believe faith is a virtue anymore. But I could be wrong.

And in terms of losing my grip on faith - I felt it wasn't worth holding on to, so why would I continue holding on to it?

Yes, I do. Why would they be any less rational or logical than a non-christian? Keep in mind that NOBODY is perfectly or rational all the time.

 

[John Mortimer]

I am from the UK.

Me too! :wave:

I am much more skeptical about religion and spirituality than I used to be (obviously) and I reckon I am more logical and rational now than when I believed Jesus was my saviour.

I just want to bring a Greek perspective here, if I may......

You will be familiar with,
"In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. By him, (or "it"), were all things made and without him, (or "it") was not anything made that was made".

The word translated "Word" is "Logos" and is the root of the concept of logic.

In the Greek paradigm of the time, the Logos represented that from which the natural laws proceeded... it was the source of creation. It is closely associated with the divine wisdom in the context of the God paradigm.

Have you considered this before?

 

[Spectrox War]

Sorry everyone. Got to go for a while. Nothing personal. I'll be back.

 

[Spectrox War]

That would have been my next guess. But I think you mean Dr. Whom...ask around.


I thought you darn Brits had a thing for the dust covered jab. But never mind. So you consider your early brush with faith to be on the order of a communicable disease then. That will make the next part easier.


Sounds more like infatuation than faith. Faith is founded on trust and reliance. Apostasy is predicated on doubt. To quote the Bard, "You can't get there from here." That is, you can't trust and doubt. They're mutually exclusive. So if you found yourself entertaining the latter you never quite possessed the former. You reserved something in the foundation of your faith.

The most common reservation is a variation on pride. It demands that God suit and reconcile Himself to our context instead of examining life's questions within His. That sort of faith is doomed from the start. It's really only a matter of time.

Re: rationality and faith, by degree

But not quite an answer to the question and test of your hypothesis. I'll be more succinct, sort of: do you believe that your progress to a more clearly reasoned state is something of a rule steeped in causality or that your faith worked as a bar to that in your particular but not necessarily as the rule?

Re: the problematic

What I meant is you now have a poorer context relative to any number of things, from a denial (on an intellectual level) of your biological hard wiring for survival, to the inescapable conclusions relating to value and purpose that follow agnosticism or, more particularly, atheism.

Re: hats and tempests

Here? Almost always. Sometimes it's only in a teapot, but in any case you'll never really lose it with so many people eager to hand it to you. lain:

Well met. :e4e:

I understand the individual words you are using but I can't seem to grasp what you're getting at.

 

[Paulos]

Thanks. Did you know everyone in the world could stand together like sardines and fit on the Isle of Wight?

Say hello to David Icke for me!

 

[Spectrox War]

"And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.".............. "And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them."

Yes I had this stuff quoted to me ad nauseum during my deconversion. It was as irritating and vacuous then as it is now. If you try hard enough I'm sure you can find any answer to anything you like in the Bible. It's a big book with lots of writing in it.

 

[Spectrox War]

Yes, I do. Why would they be any less rational or logical than a non-christian? Keep in mind that NOBODY is perfectly or rational all the time.

Because Bible believers presumably believe in the miracles and other tall tales. These violate known laws of science.

 

[Spectrox War]

Me too! :wave:



I just want to bring a Greek perspective here, if I may......

You will be familiar with,
"In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. By him, (or "it"), were all things made and without him, (or "it") was not anything made that was made".

The word translated "Word" is "Logos" and is the root of the concept of logic.

In the Greek paradigm of the time, the Logos represented that from which the natural laws proceeded... it was the source of creation. It is closely associated with the divine wisdom in the context of the God paradigm.

Have you considered this before?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Spectrox War]

Say hello to David Icke for me!

Who mentioned an alien-lizard people conspiracy?