I have a question for Calvinists...

[Clete]

This does not accurately characterize Classical Calvinist thinking. In their thought: it takes an extraordinary act of interference on God's end to regenerate someone, bringing him/her from a state of already being spiritually dead into a state of being spiritually alive. God may cause, logically speaking, reprobation, but it is in a purely inactive sense. It is the persons themselves actively choosing hell.

While I may not agree with this viewpoint, it behooves us to consider their true positions instead of a straw man.

It is completely accurate and its not even close to a straw man. Saying otherwise is wishful thinking or ignorance.

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed.* Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Totton Linnet]

we have to abide by what the scripture says...he closed their eyes, and stopped up their ears.

I believe we are in God's will or not

If we are in God's will He makes all things to work together for good. If we are following our own "freewill" we will prolly end up in bondage again...in fact we will for that is where it leads to.

 

[lukecash12]

There is no need for God to "choose" anyone for damnation, because we do a pretty good job of damning ourselves through our sin. God doesn't cause us to sin. We do that of our own will. All people.....even the elect.

The only "just" thing really, is for all men to go to hell for their sins! The wages of sin is death. Why would it not be just to be punished for sin? Just because God has decided to extend grace to some, based on his own purposes, in order that they might be spared and brought to salvation.....this somehow makes God unjust? Nobody would be saved if it weren't for God's grace. How would justice be served if God just saved everybody and nobody paid for their sin? If the President, for instance, pardons a criminal and they are spared from having to be imprisoned, does this mean that all criminals should be pardoned? Is it unjust to send criminals to jail, just because a few are blessed with a pardoning?

So why does it even matter? Either way, with God's omniscience, He knows where we will end up before he ever creates us. So, in your belief system, why would he still create those people that he knows will end up in hell? What would be the purpose in that? If it wasn't for God's grace, to determine beforehand that he would save ANY, we would ALL be destined for destruction.

Great points, monsieur, great points.

Calvinism's answer: God doesn't directly cause us to sin. His inactivity coupled with our own nature causes us to sin resulting in damnation, though. In effect, God choosing inactivity towards (as in not regenerating) some people is clearly choosing them for damnation. Another important doctrinal to understand is that God's reasons for election in eternity past are inscrutable reasons, and He is not answerable to us regarding those reasons. It's important to remember that in light of what we did in Adam and continue doing ourselves, God isn't required to save anyone. It is His good pleasure to choose those He wishes to have for company.

 

[Angel4Truth]

we have to abide by what the scripture says...he closed their eyes, and stopped up their ears.

I believe we are in God's will or not

If we are in God's will He makes all things to work together for good. If we are following our own "freewill" we will prolly end up in bondage again...in fact we will for that is where it leads to.

He closes the eyes and ears of those who have already rejected Him.

1 Timothy 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron.

God knows their hearts, and gives them over to what is in it, He does not force them.

 

[Clete]

Great points, monsieur, great points.

Calvinism's answer: God doesn't directly cause us to sin. His inactivity coupled with our own nature causes us to sin resulting in damnation, though. In effect, God choosing inactivity towards (as in not regenerating) some people is clearly choosing them for damnation. Another important doctrinal to understand is that God's reasons for election in eternity past are inscrutable reasons, and He is not answerable to us regarding those reasons. It's important to remember that in light of what we did in Adam and continue doing ourselves, God isn't required to save anyone. It is His good pleasure to choose those He wishes to have for company.

Such a god is unjust or the concept of justice has no meaning.

 

[Totton Linnet]

He closes the eyes and ears of those who have already rejected Him.

1 Timothy 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron.

God knows their hearts, and gives them over to what is in it, He does not force them.

....this bit is added "of those who have already rejected Him"

 

[Angel4Truth]

....this bit is added "of those who have already rejected Him"

Yes, they showed they already rejected Him by their actions toward Him.

I didnt add anything the bible says it.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Luke 13:34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yes, they showed they already rejected Him by their actions toward Him.

I didnt add anything the bible says it.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

John repulsed them

 

[Angel4Truth]

John repulsed them

Point being is that they did not want the truth, and God gave them over to what was in their own hearts.

 

[musterion]

This does not accurately characterize Classical Calvinist thinking.

I'm not particularly interested in whatever mutant, watered-down, repackaged, smiley-faced strain of Calvinism you're interested in defending here. I and others can support, and have elsewhere supported, every thing I said from CALVIN'S own in-context writings on the matter.

 

[Totton Linnet]

When he saw them he said "who told you to flee from the wrath to come....God has come to winnow you out"

He said they were vipers.....will God save vipers?

 

[lukecash12]

It is completely accurate and its not even close to a straw man. Saying otherwise is wishful thinking or ignorance.

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed.* Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

Resting in Him,
Clete

Thank you Clete, this is proving to be an engaging and pleasant discussion thus far.

Here's how I believe a knowledgeable Calvinist would respond:

1. This is scholarly material by Calvin, not a statement of belief like the Westminster Confession. The Westminster Confession is the standard for people believing in Reformed theology (although different versions of it are used), of which Calvin is the chief proponent. Augustine also was formative for the movement, notably close to agreement with TULIP.

The reason that Reformed thinkers are called Calvinists is that they have been habitually called it, and simply find it easier to go along with now. Don't be surprised if "Calvinists" call each other Reformed instead, because that is what they truly are.

Hence, statements like these by Calvin are not necessarily representative of Reformed thinkers. Other very formative names, for Calvinists today, that deserve a mention aside from Calvin and Augustine are thinkers such as Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, John Knox, Francis Turretin, and especially Jonathan Edwards.

2. God is able to cause things both inactively and actively, through Himself, personal agents, and impersonal agents.

3. Reformed belief applies to more than just TULIP:

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Preservation of the saints

Rather, it was a general statement of faith intended for the Church of England as a whole; the document was drawn up by the 1646 Westminster Assembly.

And I quote:

It includes doctrines common to most of Christendom such as the Trinity and Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection, and it contains doctrines specific to Protestantism such as sola scriptura and sola fide. Its more controversial features include double predestination (held alongside freedom of choice), the covenant of works with Adam, the Puritan doctrine that assurance of salvation is not a necessary consequence of faith, a minimalist conception of worship, and a strict sabbatarianism.


Even more controversially, it states that the Pope is the Antichrist, that the Roman Catholic mass is a form of idolatry, that the civil magistrates have divine authority to punish heresy, and rules out marriage with non-Christians. These formulations were repudiated by several bodies which adopted the confession (for instance, the Church of Scotland, though its ministers are still free to adhere to the full confession and some do), but the confession remains part of the official doctrine of some other Presbyterian churches. For example, the Presbyterian Church of Australia holds to the Westminster Confession of Faith as its standard, subordinate to the Word of God, and read in the light of a declaratory statement.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Confession_of_Faith#cite_note-2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Confession_of_Faith

 

[Angel4Truth]

When he saw them he said "who told you to flee from the wrath to come....God has come to winnow you out"

He said they were vipers.....will God save vipers?

Where do you keep getting that i believe God will save everyone, just because i say that God doesnt force someone to Trust in Him?

God would save a viper if they repented and believed the gospel, yes.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Where do you keep getting that i believe God will save everyone, just because i say that God doesnt force someone to Trust in Him?

God would save a viper if they repented and believed the gospel, yes.

Again I say God planted good wheat in the kingdom, it was the devil who sowed tares. God knows who are wheat and who are tares...He won't save tares.

People can complain as much as they like

 

[Clete]

I'm not particularly interested in whatever mutant, watered-down, repackaged, smiley-faced strain of Calvinism you're interested in defending here. I and others can support, and have elsewhere supported, every thing I said from CALVIN'S own in-context writings on the matter.

See what I mean lukecash12 ?

I'm telling you, I haven't exaggerated or distorted anything. Calvinists really do believe this stuff!

You'd do well to figure out what your own Classical Arminian theology shares in common not just with Classical Calvinism but with the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato). That's where all this nonsense comes from.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Angel4Truth]

Again I say God planted good wheat in the kingdom, it was the devil who sowed tares. God knows who are wheat and who are tares...He won't save tares.

People can complain as much as they like

Are you even listening to me? No one said God will save those who reject Him, i am saying He allows people the will to do so.

 

[lukecash12]

I'm not particularly interested in whatever mutant, watered-down, repackaged, smiley-faced strain of Calvinism you're interested in defending here. I and others can support, and have elsewhere supported, every thing I said from CALVIN'S own in-context writings on the matter.

First, let me wish you God's blessing and entreat you to think calmly. I'm not a "Calvinist" myself (the technically correct word is "Reformed"), and am merely reflecting what my not inconsiderable education has taught me on the subject. You may be surprised to learn that Calvin is one amongst a group of thinkers that Reformed thinkers refer back to, and his writings are not the sole definitive statements of their belief.

Like I've mentioned a few times already, Augustine is the first thinker they base their biblical thoughts upon, tracing them from him through a series of theologians who participated in what can truly be called an Augustinian tradition.

While I can't agree with everything set forth in TULIP, as a Classical/Reformed Arminian my theology is close to Calvinists, and it's roots hark back to Augustine as well. There is much more involved than TULIP.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Are you even listening to me? No one said God will save those who reject Him, i am saying He allows people the will to do so.

Man chose to reject God in the garden, that choice is made.

Man does not have freewill to choose again, if he did there would be no need for Christ to die, all He needs to do is persuade men.

But man is bound, he is a slave. Bound to sin and bound to die.

There were no Red Indians saved before the Europeans got to America, the power to set free and save is the gospel....not man's "free" will which is bondage.

Again Paul says "before you were known of God you were in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe."

So we must be set free before we can choose.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Man chose to reject God in the garden, that choice is made.

Man does not have freewill to choose again, if he did there would be no need for Christ to die, all He needs to do is persuade men.

But man is bound, he is a slave. Bound to sin and bound to die.

There were no Red Indians saved before the Europeans got to America, the power to set free and save is the gospel....not man's "free" will which is bondage.

Again Paul say "before you were known of God you were in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe."

So we must be set free before we can choose.

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

That a lie there?

 

[Angel4Truth]

How about this?

Isaiah 45:19
I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.