Tinark
Active member
Nope - you said science proves that life begins at fertilization - my liver cell is just as alive as a zygote from a scientific perspective, is it not? Would you like to elaborate on what you meant, then?
I hate when people say Abortion is not something i would do BUT...
- Thread starter republicanchick
- Start date
Nope - you said science proves that life begins at fertilization - my liver cell is just as alive as a zygote from a scientific perspective, is it not? Would you like to elaborate on what you meant, then?
republicanchick
New member
then you won't get offended if someone says you didn't deserve to live, didn't have a right to live back then? Please
you have no idea who is "conscious" or not
and again, when in doubt, we take the side of LIFE, not death
if it is human and alive, you do not use sharp instruments to make "it" NOT live anymore
a moral person does not do that..
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Tinark
Active member
One could easily say that only non-Jewish zygotes are persons. Jewish zygotes have the DNA in the wrong sequence and can be killed willy nilly, both pre-birth and post birth. This is the kind of logic one can fall into when life is defined by the arbitrary properties of a zygote rather than the inherent properties that give a person value (shared by all humans, Jewish and non-Jewish alike): consciousness, thoughts, dreams, ability to form bonds and relationships, etc.
Who could say something so horrid? You?
Tinark
Active member
Since I didn't exist at that point in time, there was no "me" to kill. I am not offended by the suggestion I didn't have a right to live back then since I didn't yet exist. Things are different now, because now I am a person.
Yes we do know - we have a scientific understanding on the minimum necessary features required for consciousness, none of which are present in a zygote or a fetus under 4 months in development. While we can't say for sure when it is present, there are points in time when we can say for sure it _isn't_ present.
There are points in time when I am not in doubt - such as a less than 4 month old fetus. Beyond that, I'm fine with being cautious.
If there is evidence of possible consciousness, I agree with you. When there is definitely no consciousness (no brain activity), then I disagree.
Tinark
Active member
Anyone who uses the logic you and others like you utilize: defining personhood based on the arbitrary properties of a human zygote rather than inherent properties such as consciousness, self-awareness, ability to form thoughts, dreams, and relationships/bonds with others, etc.
The logic your side utilizes is already in place by defining certain zygotes (those with human DNA) as persons and other zygotes (those with chimpanzee DNA, for example) as non-persons. What's stopping someone from saying that those zygotes with Jewish DNA are non-human and not persons using your line of logic? Saying that such a statement is horrid is not a counterpoint. It follows directly from the arbitrary nature in how your side defines a person.
Instead, if we define personhood based on properties using reason and logic and delve into the deeper reasons why killing a person is wrong, then there is no logical or rational basis to define a Jew as a non-person, since as long as a Jew has the properties that make a person a person (such as consciousness, etc., the properties I defined previously), then there is no dispute, and someone who says they are not a person is objectively wrong since it is an objective fact that both Jews and non-Jews have those same properties that give them inherent value.
republicanchick
New member
this is just so dumb sounding... you woiuld not exist NOW if you had not exsted as a zygote...
geez...
Tinark
Active member
And I would not exist now had my parents used contraception on the particular night they had sex that lead to me being born. That doesn't mean that the use of contraception is murder.
I became a person when I developed the inherent properties that give a person worth and make killing persons wrong: consciousness, ability to suffer, ability to experience pleasure and happiness, ability to form bonds with other people, etc. The absence of any one of these features doesn't necessarily make me a non-person. However, in the absence of every single one of them, I am no longer a person.
republicanchick
New member
for one thing, contraception keeps a zygote from being produced... geez... :bang: and for another, sometimes contraception fails... So I guess you would say Mom, it failed... go ahead and kill me... bring in the sharp instruments b/c I only become a person when I hve my cells have replicated 1000 times (not 100 times)..
OK, Hitler
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Tinark
Active member
Umm, have you not been paying attention? I agree I was not a person then. Yes, killing the cells that would develop into me at that point would be no different, from a moral perspective, from using contraception to prevent the pregnancy that led to my development or killing off liver cells when drinking a beer.
You think Hitler defined personhood using inherent properties such as consciousness, ability to suffer, ability to form thoughts, ability to feel pleasure, ability to form bonds, etc? What kind of indoctrination mill did you learn history from?
republicanchick
New member
hey, I skimmed through this and don't want to.. uh.. not skim
I am tired of your disrespect for human life, OK?
that's all I have to say...
if you want to say you were just a blob in the beginning... well, whatever... even blobs can be human...
I don't believe in killing humans unless said humans are trying to kill me or other innocent folks...
I even defend your right to live... even though you annoy me...
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Sitamun
New member
Sweetie, if you are going to respond to posts in your own thread, you should do more than SKIM.
republicanchick
New member
Cruciform
New member
An embryo is a human being in the same way that a fetus, a preborn, an infant, a toddler, a young child, an adolescent, an adult, and an elderly individual are all human beings. Each is merely a human being at a different stage of growth and development. All, however, are human beings. Thus abortion at any stage ends a human life.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
shagster01
New member
Again I ask, when you eat an egg do you consider it the same thing as eating chicken?
republicanchick
New member
it's age discrimination @ its finest
but we big, already born people don't have to worry about it so..
What's on TV tonight?
sigh
but we big, already born people don't have to worry about it so..
What's on TV tonight?
sigh
Cruciform
New member
Sure there are. For example, when I am asleep (unconscious), am I then no longer a person? How about someone in a coma? Are the severely mentally retarded somehow "lesser persons" or "less human" than others? And if so, should we then simply kill them? After all, by your criterion, they're not human persons anyway, right...? :think:
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
republicanchick
New member
that analogy doesn't wash
but then... we're not surprised
again: can't have chicken without egg
egg is chicken that doesn't look like chicken yet
all the genes are there... it is merely development/nutrition that is different
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Cruciform
New member
Technically, yes (if it's been fertilized, anyway). My young daughter even jokingly refers to chicken eggs as "chicken abortions."
Cruciform
New member
Your liver tissue is composed of living cells, they are not living human beings (or beings of any species whatsoever). So, no.