ECT I Come Quickly

[JudgeRightly]

The Lord Jesus said the following from heaven:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Rev.22:12).​

What "coming" was He referring to and did He come quickly?

He was referring to His second coming, His return to establish His kingdom on Earth.

So the Lord Jesus said "I come quickly" but He hasn't come yet?

Correct. And He meant it.

Why?

Jeremiah 18.

Circumstances changed. He fully intended to return within 7 years of his resurrection. One year into that, however, and Israel wasn't showing any fruit from the Holy Spirit's fertilizing.

So God cut off Israel (temporarily), and grafted in the Gentiles to work with them, putting Israel's plans on hold "until the fullness of the gentiles has been reached."

God said He would establish Israel, they rebelled, so He couldn't.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So are you saying that the great tribulation started when the Lord Jesus said those words?

Those words were the declaration that the desolation of Jerusalem would occur.
The Olivet Discourse specifies when the great tribulation starts.

Luke 21:20-23 20 [JESUS]And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.[/JESUS] 21 [JESUS]Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.[/JESUS] 22 [JESUS]For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.[/JESUS] 23 [JESUS]But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.[/JESUS]​

Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse must be accepted as the most accurate because of the words used in the Mark and Matthew versions.
The great tribulation begins when armies come against Jerusalem and the great tribulation is only upon the children of Israel.

Both the Mark and Matthew versions indicate that their versions of the Olivet Discourse substituted the words of Jesus with words that Jesus did not speak: let the reader understand.

Mark 13:14-19 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) [JESUS]then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:[/JESUS] 15 [JESUS]And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:[/JESUS] 16 [JESUS]And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.[/JESUS] 17 [JESUS]But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days![/JESUS] 18 [JESUS]And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.[/JESUS] 19 [JESUS]For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[/JESUS]​

Matthew 24:15-21 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 [JESUS]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:[/JESUS] 17 [JESUS]Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:[/JESUS] 18 [JESUS]Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.[/JESUS] 19 [JESUS]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days![/JESUS] 20 [JESUS]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:[/JESUS] 21 [JESUS]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[/JESUS]​

Since Jesus never actually spoke the words "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel", we must then try to identify which of the three instances of "abomination of desolation" from Daniel were meant by Mark and Matthew.
The only one of the three that actually matches the words the writers inserted into the Olivet Discourse is this one, which mentions polluting the sanctuary with the abomination that makes desolate:

Daniel 11:31 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.​

This is a prophecy of the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes in the intertestamental period between the Old Testament and the New Testament, as recorded in Maccabees.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Maccabees-Chapter-1/

1 Maccabees 1:20,37-39,45-46,53-54 20 And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he returned again in the hundred forty and third year, and went up against Israel and Jerusalem with a great multitude, 37 Thus they shed innocent blood on every side of the sanctuary, and defiled it: 38 Insomuch that the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled because of them: whereupon the city was made an habitation of strangers, and became strange to those that were born in her; and her own children left her. 39 Her sanctuary was laid waste like a wilderness, her feasts were turned into mourning, her sabbaths into reproach her honour into contempt. 45 And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the sabbaths and festival days: 46 And pollute the sanctuary and holy people: 53 And drove the Israelites into secret places, even wheresoever they could flee for succour. 54 Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;​

By adding the words "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel", Mark and Matthew are showing that Jesus is speaking about an event similar to what happened during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, where a foreign power would come in with armies to take command of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Christian history records that the believers in Christ fled Jerusalem when they saw the signs given by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine Chapter V.—The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ. 3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men. 4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,—all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Olivet Discourse specifies when the great tribulation starts.

Luke 21:20-23 20 [JESUS]And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.[/JESUS] 21 [JESUS]Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.[/JESUS] 22 [JESUS]For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.[/JESUS] 23 [JESUS]But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.[/JESUS]​

Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse must be accepted as the most accurate because of the words used in the Mark and Matthew versions.
The great tribulation begins when armies come against Jerusalem and the great tribulation is only upon the children of Israel.

That is what happened in 70 AD:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains" (Lk.21:20-21).​

The warning to flee to the mountains is what they are to do after seeing Jerusalem compassed with armies. But that is different from what will happen leading up to the great tribulation:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (Mt.24:15-16).​

In 70 AD the warning to flee to the mountains is for shortly before the desolation begins. On the other hand, in regard to the great tribulation, they are told to flee to the mountains after seeing the abomination standing in the holy place. That will happen 3.5 years prior to the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

You are confusing the two. Just like you are confused about Daniel's prophecy of 70 Weeks. Can you give me even one recognized Biblical scholar who agrees with your ideas about the 70 Weeks?

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is what happened in 70 AD:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains" (Lk.21:20-21).​

The warning to flee to the mountains is what they are to do after seeing Jerusalem compassed with armies. But that is different from what will happen leading up to the great tribulation:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (Mt.24:15-16).​

In 70 AD the warning to flee to the mountains is for shortly before the desolation begins. On the other hand, in regard to the great tribulation, they are told to flee to the mountains after seeing the abomination standing in the holy place. That will happen 3.5 years prior to the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

You are confusing the two.

The only confusion comes from the people that refuse to see that the events described in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke are all the same events.

Just like you are confused about Daniel's prophecy of 70 Weeks.

I am not confused about Daniel's prophecy of 70*7 years.

Let's start at the beginning.
Daniel was praying and the prophecy is a direct answer to that prayer.

Daniel 9:11,24 11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 24a Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression​

Question: What is the transgression and who does the prophecy state are the ones to finish the transgression?
Answer: All Israel are to finish the transgression.
Question: How long is all Israel given to finish the transgression?
Answer: 70*7 years.

Do you want to dispute this literal interpretation with a figurative interpretation from Dispensational Eschatology?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The only confusion comes from the people that refuse to see that the events described in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke are all the same events.

If they are the same event then why is the warning to flee in Luke different from that found in Matthew?

Besides that, the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will end the great tribulation by defeating the same people who will originally come against Jerusalem:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am not confused about Daniel's prophecy of 70*7 years.

Let's start at the beginning.
Daniel was praying and the prophecy is a direct answer to that prayer.

Daniel 9:11,24 11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 24a Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression​

Daniel was telling the LORD that the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary were laying desolate (Dan.9:18-19) and the Lord answered that in seventy weeks of years the city would be restored. The LORD's answer was not conditional in any sense!

And beginning with the abomination standing in the holy place until the end of the great tribulation will be 3.5 years.

Not 2000 years and counting, as you imagine.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If they are the same event then why is the warning to flee in Luke different from that found in Matthew?

What do you consider different about the warning?

Luke 21:21a 21a [JESUS]Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;[/JESUS] Mark 13:14b 14b [JESUS]then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:[/JESUS] Matthew 24:16 16 [JESUS]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:[/JESUS]​

Besides that, the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will end the great tribulation by defeating the same people who will originally come against Jerusalem:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).​

I see no problem with that prophecy fitting in after the end of the 2000 year great tribulation upon the children of Israel.
They have to return to the land of promise at the end of the great tribulation (exile), then the nations will gather against Jerusalem (Revelation 16:14-16)

 

[genuineoriginal]

Daniel was telling the LORD that the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary were laying desolate (Dan.9:18-19) and the Lord answered that in seventy weeks of years the city would be restored. The LORD's answer was not conditional in any sense!

Sure it was.
The children of Israel were given a specified number of years to repent.
They had already been given 70 years in captivity to repent.
The prophecy in Daniel 9 gave them another 70*7 years to repent.

What do you think was supposed to happen to to the children of Israel if they continued in their disobedience?

Leviticus 26:27-33 27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; 28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. 30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. 31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. 32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. 33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.​

History shows that all of these things happened to the children of Israel beginning in 70 CE.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The children of Israel were given a specified number of years to repent.

You just make up conditions which are not there. The LORD's answer as to when Jerusalem would be restored is found here and absolutely no "conditions" are mentioned:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​

Besides that, the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will end the great tribulation by defeating the same people who will originally come against Jerusalem:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Daniel was telling the LORD that the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary were laying desolate (Dan.9:18-19) and the Lord answered that in seventy weeks of years the city would be restored. The LORD's answer was not conditional in any sense!

Of course it was conditional.

And beginning with the abomination standing in the holy place until the end of the great tribulation will be 3.5 years.

Not 2000 years and counting, as you imagine.

You are ignoring what the scriptures actually state because you find it more comfortable to believe in the convoluted eschatology of Dispensationalism instead.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You just make up conditions which are not there. The LORD's answer as to when Jerusalem would be restored is found here and absolutely no "conditions" are mentioned:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​

I count six tasks.

1. Daniel's people were given 490 years to finish the transgression.
2. Daniel's people were given 490 years to make an end of sins.
3. Daniel's people were given 490 years to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. Daniel's people were given 490 years to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. Daniel's people were given 490 years to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. Daniel's people were given 490 years to anoint the most Holy.

If they did not complete those six tasks, they would be exiled from the land of promise.

That is definitely conditional.

Besides that, the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will end the great tribulation by defeating the same people who will originally come against Jerusalem:

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).​

You are assuming that the Romans that sent their armies against Jerusalem are the "all nations" from Zechariahn.
They are not.
The verse in Zechariah 14 takes place after the end of the great tribulation when the beast of Revelation leads the armies of the nations against Jerusalem.

Also, there is no way that any tribulation lasting only 3-1/2 years (or even 7 years) could be a GREAT tribulation.
The children of Israel had already gone through 70 years of tribulation in the Babylonian captivity and had already completed more than 483 years of the 490 year prophecy when Jesus spoke about a coming great tribulation upon the children of Israel.

 

[marhig]

The Lord Jesus said the following from heaven:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Rev.22:12).​

What "coming" was He referring to and did He come quickly?

Into our hearts once we truly believe and repent and are ready to live by the will of God.

 

[marhig]

I'm saying the gathering of His saints and the Day of the Lord happen at the same time.

That's true, but it's happening now.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If they did not complete those six tasks, they would be exiled from the land of promise.

Are you really this uninformed?

Do you not even know that the prophecy of the 70th week of Daniel was given while the nation of Israel was already in exile from the land of promise?

You don't even have a basic knowledge about the things of which you pose to be an expert!

The only thing which you are good at is perverting the word of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Into our hearts once we truly believe and repent and are ready to live by the will of God.

So when the Lord Jesus spoke of coming and His reward for his saints will with Him He was just speaking about coming into the heart of those who believe?

You are as far from the truth as is humanly possible!

You make a mockery out of the words of the Lord Jesus!

 

[marhig]

So when the Lord Jesus spoke of coming and His reward for his saints will with Him He was just speaking about coming into the heart of those who believe?

You are as far from the truth as is humanly possible!

You make a mockery out of the words of the Lord Jesus!

Jerry he is here, he came in that generation and he is in his people. He is gathering us together now through his people. Much of what people quote is Spiritual.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry he is here, he came in that generation and he is in his people.

He is not here bodily, is He?

 

[marhig]

He is not here bodily, is He?

We are his body!

 

[JudgeRightly]

We are his body!

We aren't Him, though. Therefore He Himself is not here.

 

[marhig]

We aren't Him, though. Therefore He Himself is not here.

He is here in our hearts, so he is here,