ECT I Come Quickly

[Jerry Shugart]

These happen at the same time:

Zechariah 14:2 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Revelation 16:16-17 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.​

That is not possible because Zech 14:2 speaks of the action happening in Jerusalem while Revelation 16:16 doesn't.

The prophecy of Zechariah 14:2 can only be fulfilled during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Was Peter right or was Peter wrong?

Peter was indeed right that some of the things were being fulfilled on the day of Pentecost but in order for those things to come to fulfillment the nation must first repent:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is not possible because Zech 14:2 speaks of the action happening in Jerusalem while Revelation 16:16 doesn't.

The armies were gathered at Har Megiddo on their way to assault Jerusalem.

The prophecy of Zechariah 14:2 can only be fulfilled during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21.

The great tribulation of Matthew 24 (exile from the land of promise) began in 66 CE and has been ongoing ever since.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Peter was indeed right that some of the things were being fulfilled on the day of Pentecost but in order for those things to come to fulfillment the nation must first repent:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

There is no requirement for the children of Israel to repent first in those verses.
There is only a plea that the children of Israel repent in order to have their sins blotted out when Jesus returns.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The great tribulation of Matthew 24 (exile from the land of promise) began in 66 CE and has been ongoing ever since.

You are TOTALLY CONFUSED because the Lord Jesus' words at Matthew 24 were in answer to the disciples' question here:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age", the "end of this age." He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the "field is the world."

None of those things have happened so we know that the end of the age hasn't yet come and therefore the great tribulation remains in the future.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no requirement for the children of Israel to repent first in those verses.
There is only a plea that the children of Israel repent in order to have their sins blotted out when Jesus returns.

It is evident that Peter's words are addressed to the "nation" of Israel:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

Peter was telling the nation that if she would repent then the Lord Jesus would be sent back to the earth.

Do you want to argue that Peter was saying that every time an individual Jew repented then the Lord Jesus would be sent back to the earth?

 

[genuineoriginal]

You are TOTALLY CONFUSED because the Lord Jesus' words at Matthew 24 were in answer to the disciples' question here:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

The disciples asked when the buildings of the temple would be destroyed so that there was not one stone left on another in response to what Jesus stated.

Matthew 24:1-2 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

That event happened in 70 CE, but the full great tribulation began in 66 CE when the Roman armies first marched against Jerusalem and the Christians fled Jerusalem and Judaea to the town of Pella before the destruction because they believed the words of Jesus.
The exile of the children of Israel is known as the great tribulation, and Jesus got that phrase from Daniel 12:1.
The great tribulation upon the children of Israel (exile from the land of promise) is to last until the end of the age according to Daniel 9:27.

we know that the end of the age hasn't yet come and therefore the great tribulation remains in the future.

Yes, the end of the great tribulation is at the end of the age.
Your problem is that you can't recognize the beginning of the great tribulation, nor can you recognize that it is the tribulation of the children of Israel and not all nations.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your problem is that you can't recognize the beginning of the great tribulation, nor can you recognize that it is the tribulation of the children of Israel and not all nations.

Your problem is unbelief because you just refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus said would happen at the end of the age.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is evident that Peter's words are addressed to the "nation" of Israel:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

Peter was telling the nation that if she would repent then the Lord Jesus would be sent back to the earth.

No, that is not what Peter was telling them.

Peter stated that the people that repented would have their sins blotted out when the times of refreshing happened.

Acts 3:19 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.​

Peter stated that God would send Jesus Christ at the times of the restitution of all things.

Acts 3:20-21 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

The times of refreshing and the times of restitution of all things are most likely the exact same times, but there is no directly cause/effect relationship mentioned between the repentance and the return of Jesus Christ.

Do you want to argue that Peter was saying that every time an individual Jew repented then the Lord Jesus would be sent back to the earth?

Since there is no directly cause/effect relationship mentioned between the repentance and the return of Jesus Christ, you would be silly to argue that the Lord Jesus would be sent back to earth every time an individual Jew repented.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Your problem is unbelief because you just refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus said would happen at the end of the age.

Don't be silly.
I accept what Jesus stated about the end of the age.

Jesus' prophecy began with speaking about what would happen to the temple buildings.
This part of the prophecy was fulfilled in 70 CE.
That is an undeniable fact.

Jesus' prophecy mentioned that the armies surrounding Jerusalem would begin the great tribulation (Luke 21:20-21) and that the believers should flee Jerusalem and Judaea.
This part of the prophecy was fulfilled in 66 CE.
That is an undeniable fact.

There are parts of the prophecy about the end of the great tribulation that have not been fulfilled yet.
That is an undeniable fact.

Therefore, the great tribulation began in 66 CE and has not ended yet.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Don't be silly.
I accept what Jesus stated about the end of the age.

Then you are really confused because He said that at the end of the age there will be a world wide harvest so you must think that has already happened.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Then you are really confused because He said that at the end of the age there will be a world wide harvest so you must think that has already happened.

Are ye daft, man?
I have stated over and over that the end of the great tribulation and the end of the age are still in the future.
You are having problem accepting the truth that the beginning of the great tribulation happened in the past.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are having problem accepting the truth that the beginning of the great tribulation happened in the past.

I will believe the truth about what the Scriptures say about the "abomination of desolation" spoken of at Matthew 24:15 and here:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Dan.9:27).​

In the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation mentioned here will stand in the holy place:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Mt.24:15-16,21).​

Then three and one half years later, at the end of the 70thn week, the great tribulation will be over and everlasting righteousness will be brought unto Jerusalem:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​

After the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place then 3 1/2 years later the great tribulation will end. But according to your ideas the great tribulation has already begun and it is continuing today.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I will believe the truth about what the Scriptures say about the "abomination of desolation" spoken of at Matthew 24:15 and here:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Dan.9:27).​

You have been taught to read that passage wrong.

Daniel 9:27 27 And he (God) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (God) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (God) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

The covenant is not some made up covenant, it is the covenant that Daniel was already familiar with because he read of it in Jeremiah (see Daniel 9:2).

Jeremiah 31:31-34 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I (God) will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

Here is the confirmation of the covenant:

Mark 14:24 24 And he said unto them, [JESUS]This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.[/JESUS]​

Jesus started His ministry 3-1/2 years before the crucifixion.
The sacrifice and oblation ceased at the crucifixion.
The apostles continued preaching the Gospel to only the children of Israel for another 3-1/2 years (the end of the 70 "weeks"), then Peter was sent to preach the Gospel to Cornelius, a Gentile.

Who is the one that made it (the holy city Jerusalem) desolate?

Matthew 23:37-38 37 [JESUS]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![/JESUS] 38 [JESUS]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.[/JESUS]​

In the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation mentioned here will stand in the holy place:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Mt.24:15-16,21).​

Luke recorded the actual words of Jesus, unlike Matthew and Mark.

Luke 21:20-21 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.​

Matthew and Mark made sure everyone knew that they did not record the actual words of Jesus when they inserted the phrase "abomination of desolation".

Matthew 24:15-18 King James Version (KJV) 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mark 13:14-16 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.​

Then three and one half years later, at the end of the 70thn week, the great tribulation will be over and everlasting righteousness will be brought unto Jerusalem:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​

After the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place then 3 1/2 years later the great tribulation will end. But according to your ideas the great tribulation has already begun and it is continuing today.

The great tribulation is not 3-1/2 years, it is much longer.
The great tribulation happened to the children of Israel because they did not complete the six tasks they were given in the time period they were given to do them:

According to the verse you quoted (Daniel 9:24), the children of Israel were given 490 years to complete these six tasks:

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy

The children of Israel did not complete those six tasks, so they were sent back into exile (the great tribulation).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The children of Israel did not complete those six tasks, so they were sent back into exile (the great tribulation).

The verses from the 9th chapter of Daniel are a prophecy as to what will happen in the future. And we can know from the prophecy that it will be only 3.5 years from when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place until the end of the great tribulation.

According to your theory the great tribulation has now gone on for over 2000 years!

 

[genuineoriginal]

The verses from the 9th chapter of Daniel are a prophecy as to what will happen in the future.

The prophecy in the last verses of Daniel 9 were a direct response to the prayer that Daniel prayed in the first verses of Daniel 9.
The prayer of Daniel was about the end of the 70 years of the exile of the children of Israel and the desolation of Jerusalem.
The answer was that the children of Israel would have 70*7 years to do the repentance that they failed to do during the 70 years of exile.

And we can know from the prophecy that it will be only 3.5 years from when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place until the end of the great tribulation.

No, that is a misinterpretation of two different prophecies.
The prophecy in Daniel mentions what would happen towards the end of the 70*7 years set aside for the children of Israel to repent.
Towards the end of that time, Messiah the prince would appear, Messiah (the prince) would be cut off (die) sometime after 69*7 years of the prophecy but before the end of the prophecy, and the people of (Messiah) the prince would do something to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.
Jesus said what they did that would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 23:37-38 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

According to your theory the great tribulation has now gone on for over 2000 years!

That is the only way to look at it.
The prophecy of the great tribulation is the prophecy of the great (long) tribulation of the children of Israel and the desolation of Jerusalem and the land of Israel.
Most English translations of the Old Testament use the English word "trouble" as a translation for the Hebrew צָרָה tsarah.
Most English translations of the New Testament use the English word "tribulation" for the Greek θλῖψις thlipsis.
The Septuagint uses the Greek θλῖψις thlipsis as the translation for the Hebrew צָרָה tsarah.

To find out what the Old Testament says about the tribulation, we must look for the Hebrew צָרָה tsarah.
The most obvious place to start is Daniel 12:1, since it looks like Jesus quoted from that verse.

Daniel 12:1 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

Another place to look is in Deuteronomy to see why the children of Israel go into tribulation.

Deuteronomy 31:16-21 16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. 19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. 20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.​ 21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.​

Another place to look is Jeremiah, which speaks about the end of the tribulation of the children of Israel.

Jeremiah 30:4-11 4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. 10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.​

At the end of the great tribulation, God will save the children of Israel "from afar" and "from the land of their captivity" and the children of Israel "shall return".
At the end of the great tribulation, God will "make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered" the children of Israel.

From these verses (and many many more) we see that the punishment of God on the children of Israel is to exile them from the land of promise and scatter them among the nations.

The great tribulation is the scattering of the children of Israel among the nations and their exile from the land of promise.

How long have the children of Israel been scattered among the nations?
2000 years?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is the only way to look at it.

You just ignored the facts concerning Daniel's prophecy of the 70th week:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened week" (Mt.24:15-22).​

From that prophecy we know that it will be 3.5 years from the time the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place until the end of the great tribulation.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You just ignored the facts concerning Daniel's prophecy of the 70th week:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened week" (Mt.24:15-22).​

I am not ignoring any facts, I am ignoring a wrongful interpretation put out by Dispensationalists.

From that prophecy we know that it will be 3.5 years from the time the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place until the end of the great tribulation.

No, that is not what any prophecy in the Bible says.
That is what Dispensationalists have taught, but it is not the truth.

"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"
God (He) shall make Daniel's "holy city" (Jerusalem) desolate because of the overspreading of abominations.
This is exactly what Jesus spoke:

Matthew 23:37-38 37 [JESUS]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![/JESUS] 38 [JESUS]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.[/JESUS]​

These are the words Jesus spoke, but are not His words, they are the words of the Father

John 14:10 10 [JESUS]Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.[/JESUS]​

God made Jerusalem desolate because of the overspreading of abominations.
Do not give His glory to another.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"
God (He) shall make Daniel's "holy city" (Jerusalem) desolate because of the overspreading of abominations.
This is exactly what Jesus spoke:

Matthew 23:37-38 37 [JESUS]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![/JESUS] 38 [JESUS]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.[/JESUS]​

So are you saying that the great tribulation started when the Lord Jesus said those words?