I Am Pro-Abortion

[Quetzal]

Location, location, location.

The infant in the womb doesn't magically turn into a human being at birth. He was a human being from the moment the sperm penetrated the egg.

Swing and a huge miss. The primary difference between the two is the stage of their development, that is, their relative "age". We are done here. Have a good night.

 

[Angeltress]

Swing and a huge miss. The primary difference between the two is the stage of their development, that is, their relative "age". We are done here. Have a good night.

Like I said...we will remain "far apart" on this issue until you or someone you love winds up sitting in front of someone like me.
It happens in the best of families....

Or, until we must face God with our silly "opinions"....

What do you think?
Does the blood of these murdered children cry out to Him??????

 

[Angeltress]

Truth is Truth

Truth is Truth

A voice, weeping in the wilderness.
Rachel, weeping for her children, and would not be comforted.
For they are not.....


Off topic? We are talking about abortion.
As I said earlier, unless you have seen what is left after the abortionist is finished, you really don't know what you are endorsing.

 

[TIPlatypus]

I am also pro-choice. If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. If you get pregnant by accident, TOUGH. You made the choice.

 

[Angeltress]

I am also pro-choice. If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. If you get pregnant by accident, TOUGH. You made the choice.

Now, that is a pro-choice attitude that even I can agree with

Like your granny told you...keep both feet on the floor....

 

[I drank what?]

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[I drank what?]

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[TIPlatypus]

I am making a generalisation. They never always work. I would say that the mothers life is more important than the child's, and that generally she should be allowed to abort, although there are even exceptions to this rule.

I guess I'll be pro-choice for rape victims, although I would commend anyone willing to go through the pregnancy for the sake of the child despite what has been done to her.

You cannot really make generalisations on this topic. Every situation needs its own rule as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Quetzal]

so then newborns less than a month old are fair game?

you are a monster, even by godless heathen standards

the authorities should be notified about your location ASAP

I, also, didn't say that. Your inferences are not accurate, at all.

 

[Angeltress]

Actually, there are a couple of rape victims on my list of women I have helped and whose kids still call me "Nana".
They both will tell you that their kids are the proof that God can bring something wonderful from something horrible.

 

[Angeltress]

I, also, didn't say that. Your inferences are not accurate, at all.

You said that an infant was anywhere between one month and one year old.

 

[TIPlatypus]

So, we were discussing the difference between an infant and a fetus. And, go!

The important difference of course, is that one is slightly further along in development than the other.

 

[alwight]

Location, location, location.

The infant in the womb doesn't magically turn into a human being at birth. He was a human being from the moment the sperm penetrated the egg.

You think then that a human being is magically created at conception somehow?
Maybe you don't know that most conceptions are in fact doomed to fail within a few hours, quite naturally?
Personally I don't accept that most human beings that have ever existed failed to get to first base.

A zygote after conception represents a potential human being.
A potential human being may exist at conception and as a zygote, but a sperm and egg arguably also represents a potential human being, and most people seem to have little or no problem with methods of preventing conception.

So at what point does the value of a potential human being become great enough to consider it a human being?
A very tricky question.
I'd say at least not until some sort of functioning nervous system has developed.

Because the general issues are so tricky, complex and unclear then abortion simply must involve an individual woman's right to choose and decide for herself what will happen, based on all of the specific individual circumstances.
Those who don't like the abortion choices made by other people can always impose their beliefs on themselves, by all means, if they themselves are ever in that position, but they don't have any rights over what others may choose, or to deny anyone the right to choose.

 

[I drank what?]

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[I drank what?]

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[I drank what?]

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[quip]

She seems to me to be entirely correct. It seems difficult to understand how a potential human being can be a subject of right. I deny, however, her premise: that unborn children are not actual human beings/persons. I certainly affirm that they are subsistent individuals of a rational nature.

"But they are not rational in second act (ie, they don't actually display signs of thought)."

But so what? Even if true, they are still rational in first act (ie, they are the kinds of things who are rational). Since every univocal agent generates its specific likeness, and the parents are univocal agents, it follows that their product is specifically like themselves (i.e., they have produced human offspring), namely, something which is like them both in genus (animal) and species (rational). If you assert that their product is something other than a human being or human person, you end up denying that they have produced something specifically like themselves (which denial is, of course, false).

Make up your mind....you first argue against then argue in favor of the notion of human potentiality.


Second, no one can rationally argue that a fetus is not biologically human....though simply bestowing a persona upon the unborn is mere subjective, personal choice in action. Prior to demanding such, one must first ascertain whether "being human" is a sufficient condition for personhood, both philosophically and - more importantly - legally.

 

[alwight]

"A zygote after conception represents a potential human being."

nope, let me fix that for ya

A zygote after conception is an early stage of development of a human being.

Thanks but I think I got it right the first time.
Perhaps you are happy then that most zygotes fail naturally while representing actual human beings?
But I don't accept that any human person can exist until a basic "person" can function somehow.
Therefore all of those naturally failing zygotes do not represent human beings or a human tragedy for me at least. There is only a natural process going on which if successful will result in a human person in time.

sperms and eggs are POTENTIAL human beings, once you combine them 1/2 potential + 1/2 potential = 1 Human being.

You are very entitled to have an opinion and to choose not have an abortion yourself, should that situation ever occur. However please don't try to compel others to do what you say since they may not agree with you, any more than I do.
For me potential humans are merely that, potential. It's the lives of actual human persons that are of far more interest to me, since there seems to be a virtually limitless supply of potential ones. lain:

 

[Angeltress]

You think then that a human being is magically created at conception somehow?
Maybe you don't know that most conceptions are in fact doomed to fail within a few hours, quite naturally?
Personally I don't accept that most human beings that have ever existed failed to get to first base.

A zygote after conception represents a potential human being.
A potential human being may exist at conception and as a zygote, but a sperm and egg arguably also represents a potential human being, and most people seem to have little or no problem with methods of preventing conception.

So at what point does the value of a potential human being become great enough to consider it a human being?
A very tricky question.
I'd say at least not until some sort of functioning nervous system has developed.

Because the general issues are so tricky, complex and unclear then abortion simply must involve an individual woman's right to choose and decide for herself what will happen, based on all of the specific individual circumstances.
Those who don't like the abortion choices made by other people can always impose their beliefs on themselves, by all means, if they themselves are ever in that position, but they don't have any rights over what others may choose, or to deny anyone the right to choose.

Once again, you assume that these women who find themselves in a crisis pregnancy WANT to abort. Most of the time, it isn't the woman's choice, so much as it is her boyfriend, or her boyfriends family, or, sadly, her own family pushing her into what they want...not what she wants.
There are enormous pressures on these women. Nice, friendly, helpful people who tell her that "it's a simple procedure, just like having a wart removed" and who assure her that "it's just a clump of cells". And "we just want to help you get through this difficult time, and put it all behind you"....
Yeah, right. Too many of these women have wound up sitting across from someone like me, pouring out their terrible guilt, and weeping for their dead baby. I've heard countless tales of hearing a baby crying, nightmares of searching for a crying infant that cannot be found, stories of being drawn to the baby department at WalMart, women have told me how they become more and more depressed as the due date gets closer...even years later. One girl told me how she would have to buy balloons and decorate a birthday cake for her little girl...
And then there was the woman who told me the most gruesome story of all of them. I still have nightmares about her. She was put under "twilight sleep" for her abortion, and she remembers a moment where she looked down, and saw her little baby's head floating around in a bucket of blood. Real? I don't know...but it was real enough to her.
The thing is, these women are not really fooled by the "clump of cells" rhetoric. They know that what is growing inside of them is the baby.

For most of the women who go into abortion clinics, it was not a "choice". They have been pushed and prodded into believing that it is the only option open to them.

 

[Angeltress]

That's the downside of volunteering in an abortion alternative center.
OTOH, the joy of a woman who was desperate, and who has found people who will help her...the joy of being there when she holds her little one for the very first time...the wonder in her eyes as she counts his tiny fingers and toes...
These things defy description.

Let's stop telling these girls that it's okay to abort....and start telling them that it's okay for them to have their babies.
What do you say, Christians? Let the world do what it will...but let us follow our Savior. Let's REALLY make a difference...let's love these young women enough to reach out to them and their babies. Let's affirm LIFE!