How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[xfrodobagginsx]

Your sentiments here is common and understandable and wrong. Not entirely though. I get the feeling that much of the disagreement here is as much semantic as it is substantive. In other words, we may well be saying close to the same thing just in different ways.

Try as you might, the degree to which you place yourself under the law is the degree to which you do not trust God. Your will cannot be submitted to His. Your will must not be subjugated, it must be killed. You must not submit, you must die. What will does a dead man have to submit to another?

Galatians 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”​

Indeed, you cannot live the Christian life! The harder you try, the more God Himself will see to it that you fail. You cannot improve, you cannot be better. To be disappointed in yourself is to have believed in yourself. To try to be better is to put your trust in your flesh and to resurrect that which was crucified in Christ.

The great open secret is to know and accept as true (faith) the biblical facts. The fact is that you, as a believer, are identified in Christ. You are a new creature IN HIM. In Him you are perfect. You are NOT flawed and forgiven because He is NOT flawed and forgiven. Your sin is only forgiven because it was punished IN HIM. You died in Him and the life you now live is Him living His life through you - by faith. Faith in what? Faith in the fact that these things are true! Belief in the fact that you are not being improved upon, you have been made complete and perfect in Him and that you have nothing to contribute to God's work, not only of salvation, but also of sanctification. For the same Spirit that saved you is also He that sanctifies you. (Galatians 3). Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him! (Col. 2:6).

My sentiment is Biblically correct and you are on dangerous ground to say that you don't have to have Faith in Christ to be saved.

I haven't placed myself under the Law in the slightest. Worshipping the God of the Bible is NOT the same as placing yourself under the Law. He is the means of Salvation. I do trust God, which is why I Worship Him. Of course we crucify the flesh, daily, but not for Salvation, because of Salvation.

I already understand everything you are saying and I agree, but I strongly disagree with you saying that you don't have to have Faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. That's the issue here. It's by Faith YES in Christ and His Sacrifice. Question: WHO is the Sacrifice for our sins? Answer: Jesus Christ. You MUST have Faith in HIM to be saved AND that He died on the cross and and rose from the dead, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for our sins. It's not JUST the Cross, it's the person of Christ because HE is our Sacrifice.


Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You'll like reading the article posted in the open post of the following thread....

You Cannot Live the Christian Life​

I agree that faith isn't mere intellectual acknowledgement but I feel strongly that what you are leaning into here is good works and to the degree that is the case is the degree to which you have submitted yourself to the law, whether you call it that or not.

Not even close. Submission to God in Faith is NOT Works, it's Faith. Faith results in works, but Faith is NOT the works. Faith is Trusting the Lord, to the point of submission to His will as these men did. That doesn't mean perfection or works to obtain Salvation.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as ye

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

We are Saved UNTO good works, NOT because of Good works. I do not Preach works for Salvation. The works we do after Salvation are for Rewards, not Salvation.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The place you should start with Bob is with "The Plot".


If you stick around here for very long, you'll learn that the idea that God "knows all things ahead of time", to use your phrasing, comes from the same place that all five points of Calvinism come from. They share the exact same premise and are all wrong for the same reasons. There is no need to live with the contradiction, as Les was willing to do. The truth never contradicts itself.

God does know all things ahead of time and I am not a Calvinist.

John 21:17

And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Biblically, God knows, or is able to find out, all knowable information that He wants to know.

The following concepts are not taught in the bible....

• Exhaustive foreknowledge.
• Exhaustive predestination.
• Original Sin (i.e. as taught by Augustine, the Catholic Church, Luther, Calvin, etc, etc).
• The TULIP doctrines (i.e. all of them).
• Immutability.
• The Omni-doctrines (i.e. as taught by Augustine, the Catholic Church, Luther, Calvin, etc, etc).
• God is atemporal or exists outside of time.

I highly disagree. Foreknowledge is taught throughout the Bible, but not the Calvinist view. So is Predestination, but not the Calvinist view. We are Predestinated According to Foreknowledge.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Original Sin is taught in the Bible:

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I agree for the most part with you on the TULIP doctrines, except maybe one of two.

We would vastly disagree on a wide array of Doctrines. Interesting that you are a Mid Acts Dispensationalist, because so am I, but we are vastly different in core Doctrines other than that.

I won't take the time here to make any arguments aimed at establishing these claims here. That can wait for another time, but I'll just say that all of these ideas, and others related to them, find their origin in Socrates, Aristotle and Plato, not the bible and they were imported into Christianity primarily by Augustine of Hippo.


You cannot serve God! Stop trying! All such trying is fleshly and all that results from it is failure! You are not God's servant, you are His SON, you are in HIM. Your attempts to serve are worthless, just forget it. Christ has done the work and you have been declared righteous before Him by virtue of Christ's work, not your own. All that is left for you to do is to love God and say thank you!

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.​

Well, all you have to do to know that they're from the same text is to read them side by side but here's a quote from Chat GPT....

You said:​

Is the KJV and the NKJV translated from the same texts?

ChatGPT said:​

The KJV (King James Version) and the NKJV (New King James Version) are both translated from the Textus Receptus for the New Testament. However, there are some differences in their approach:

1. KJV: For the Old Testament, it relies on the Masoretic Text, but occasionally incorporates readings from the Septuagint or Latin Vulgate where translators deemed it necessary.
2. NKJV: Similarly uses the Masoretic Text for the Old Testament but includes updated references to the Dead Sea Scrolls and other sources for clarification. It also compares readings from the Septuagint, Vulgate, and other ancient versions more thoroughly.

The NKJV was designed to modernize the language of the KJV while staying faithful to its textual base, so the source texts are largely the same, but the translation philosophy is more updated.


The only people who will ever attempt to convince you that the NKJV is not translated from the same texts are the King James Only people. Translating it from the same texts into modern English was pretty much the entire premise behind the effort to create the New King James.

I grew up in those Churches. I am not KJV only, but I do trust it more than any other Translation. Not a hill to die on for me though.

You can learn a gigantic amount about the King James Bible and about Bob Enyart's style of teaching from reading the following debate....

Is the King James Bible the Only Inspired Scripture on Earth Today? Battle Royale XIV

I have done research on both sides and both sides give a good argument. It's not first on my list of priorities at this time.

That's fine except that this is not what the text says. You are reading your doctrine into the text. All the text supports is the concept of calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation. It does not say anything at all about making Him your Lord in the sense of trying your best not to sin and to perform good works.

Yes it does say that our Faith must be in Jesus Christ to be saved, I never said anything about throwing in good works to boot and being good. Never said those things were part of Salvation. But true Faith does submit to God and submission RESULTS in Obedience. Faith is Trusting God to the point of submission, reliance on Him.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

That's not to say that we shouldn't avoid sin or that we aught not do good! (Romans 6) But if you think that doing so has anything to do with getting saved, then you've made a very big mistake and have yanked your flesh down off the cross!

I know...and you are making a very big mistake if you think you don't need to have Faith in Jesus Christ Himself to be saved....

Huh?

Romans 4:5 explicitly states that all you have to have is belief and defines faith as belief. Verse six makes it even more undeniable...

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works​

Right, he's not trying to attain Salvation through works...He trusts in the Lord in Faith....

You forgot this one.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved UNTO good works, not because of good works....

It is the opposite of what James teaches...

​

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?​

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.​

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

Two different messages to two different groups of believers, one under grace, saved by faith alone apart from works, the other under law, saved by faith mixed with good works. (Galatians 2:6-9)

I know this stuff as good or better than you do. We need Faith to be saved. Paul said it and I quoted several passages to you.

Okay, so think that through for a second.

You say, rightly, that works have no part in salvation but that faith does. That sounds terrific but your definition of faith has works added into it and so you sort of sneak works in through a back door, suggesting that there is no such thing as righteousness apart from good works.

Faith is believing. Faith is Trust. Trust means you are submitted to God, that you rely on Him. I am not adding works to Salvation, I am defining True, saving Faith. Merely believing something is true is NOT true Faith. Faith Trusts God and relies on Him and yes it believes Him.

Works are of the flesh and it is precisely our flesh which we must crucify. We mustn't attempt to modify our flesh, but to kill it. Faith, on the other hand, is accepting biblical facts as just that, facts. It is believing that what the bible teaches is true. That's what it is. Faith is not of the flesh and thus faith is NOT a work. When we believe that God died for our sin and that He was raised from the dead, God counts that faith as righteousness and we stand blameless before Him on that basis and that basis alone. Our standing before Him cannot be improved upon or added to and the same faith that saved us is the same faith the propels us along on our daily walk in Him. Faith works by love, not rules.

Christ is the Sacrifice. You must have Faith in Christ along with the Cross, death, burial and resurrection. Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God, It's all one package.

"Unmerited favor" is a heretical doctrine of Calvinism that teaches that God chose you by fiat, that He elected people arbitrarily (i.e. for no reason at all other than that He simply chose).

The term "grace" simply refers to God's willingness to save people from the punishment they deserve. God was not required to do anything related to what we would call the plan of salvation. He could have simply killed Adam and Eve for their rebellion and been done with it but He chose are more difficult, more costly path; a path that would cost Him a great deal of grief, pain and indeed His very life, but He chose to do it anyway because He saw that the result was worth the price and so decided to pay it. That decision is what grace is. God paid the price and He owns it, lock, stock and barrel. He owns both the debt and the account from which the debt will be paid. He, therefore, has the absolute right to apply payment to the debt at His own sole discretion and has decided, during this dispensation, to apply the shed blood of His only Son to those who respond to him by faith and believe that He became a man, died for their sin and rose from the dead. In other dispensations, His application was and will be different, having to do with things like the law and good works, et al, but, in any dispensation, all those who find themselves saved from an eternal Hell will ultimately have God's grace to thank for it.

Those who trust in HIM and His Sacrifice on the Cross....

Excellent!


I enjoy listening to Les from time to time but anytime I've attempted to listen to him on a regular basis I find that I have a difficult time tolerating his pace. What he's saying is excellent but his delivery leaves much to be desired. That, by the way, is very much my own personal opinion. Other's just love everything about Les' style. I have an Aunt that listens to him on a daily basis and loves every second of it but she's also from Les' generation and likes the slower pace and sort of plodding (for want of a better term - I'm really trying not to be insulting!) delivery.

I find his pace to be fast, but he does stall at times. He cross references better than anyone I have seen. I don't agree with his definition of faith as just "Believing God" I think it's includes believing to the point of trusting God, which results in a submission to Him and His will. This has nothing to do with good works for Salvation.

I Corinthians 13.

That's all I'll say on that for now.

It's amazing how what seems like a simple question can actually be a question that touches on practically every aspect of Christian doctrine. You've absolutely gotta read The Plot!


Definitely no!

I attended one for a while but they have some very odd doctrines, not the least of which is the belief that there is no such thing as a universal Body of Christ and that the local assembly of believers is THE body of Christ for anyone who attends that particular assembly.

I grew up and was saved in the so called "Christian Church" as in "Memorial Park Christian Church". They are from the same stock as both the "Disciples of Christ" and the "Church of Christ". The Disciples of Christ being more liberal and the Church of Christ being more conservative than the "Christian Churches" which were more or less somewhere between the two. All three of them are Acts 2 Dispensational and, as a result, are also quite legalistic, the Church of Christ being extremely so. All three are also Arminian and so acknowledge free will but also accept exhaustive foreknowledge and teach that God exists outside of time. In short, understanding their doctrine won't get you very far in regard to getting a feel for what I believe.


Mid-Acts churches are all but impossible to find anywhere outside Wisconsin, New Jersey and Illinois. They exist but are very few and far between. If you happen to live in the Denver area there's Agape Kingdom Fellowship, a church I do not attend because I live in the Houston area but I have had a long association with the ministry and count myself as a member there. Otherwise, you're probably not going to find a Mid-Acts church anywhere near you.

Berean Bible Society

The Berean Bible Society was founded over seventy years ago for the sole purpose of helping believers understand and enjoy the Word of God. Our Organization holds without apology to all the fundamentals of the Christian faith and is evangelical, that is, we believe that salvation is by grace through

bereanbiblesociety.org

“Is There A Grace Church Like Yours Near Me?”

I did find two in my State and visited one. I have learned that Mid Acts, doesn't mean I agree with everything they say or teach. Even you and I disagree on many things it seems.

 

[Clete]

My sentiment is Biblically correct and you are on dangerous ground to say that you don't have to have Faith in Christ to be saved.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

First of all I have NEVER said that one doesn't have to have faith in Christ to be saved. Quite the opposite, in fact.

You, however, don't get to define what the word faith means. I, on the other hand, have presented what is at the very least biblical evidence if not outright proof that the book of Romans, a book divinely inspired by God Himself, defines faith as belief. If you want to have a different definition then I can't stop you but simply showing up to tell me that you're right and that I'm dangerously wrong isn't going to convince anyone, most especially me. I suggest that you make an actual argument rather than relying simply on boldly restating your position.

I haven't placed myself under the Law in the slightest.

Saying it doesn't make it so. The degree to which you believe that good works are required for any aspect of your standing before God is the degree to which you have, in fact, placed yourself under the law, whether you acknowledge it or not. That is not my opinion, thus the use of the phrase "in fact". Words means thing and ideas have consequences.

Worshipping the God of the Bible is NOT the same as placing yourself under the Law.

I never ever suggested otherwise. What in the world did I say that would have led you to make such a comment?

That's a real question. I can't imagine what I could possibly have said that could have engendered such a reaction.

I suspect, but could be wrong, that the problem here is semantic in nature.

Define "Worshiping God".

He is the means of Salvation. I do trust God, which is why I Worship Him. Of course we crucify the flesh, daily, but not for Salvation, because of Salvation.

The point I am making is both are accomplished in the same way. The same Spirit that saves is the One Who sanctifies and by the same method - belief. You cannot live a sanctified life via the flesh. YOU cannot live a sanctified life at all! Christ living His life through you is sanctification.

I already understand everything you are saying and I agree, but I strongly disagree with you saying that you don't have to have Faith in Jesus Christ to be saved.

Well, then we are in complete agreement because I never said that you don't have to have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. That would be stupidity.

That's the issue here. It's by Faith YES in Christ and His Sacrifice. Question: WHO is the Sacrifice for our sins? Answer: Jesus Christ. You MUST have Faith in HIM to be saved AND that He died on the cross and and rose from the dead, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for our sins. It's not JUST the Cross, it's the person of Christ because HE is our Sacrifice.


Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

As stated, I agree with every syllable of this. You keep capitalizing the word "Faith" and so are almost certainly using that word to mean something other than what everyone else on planet Earth, including the biblical authors, mean when they use that word.

Faith is belief. Saving faith is belief in certain specific things. In times past, salvation was granted to those who mixed faith with good works (James 2). Now it is by faith alone apart from works (Romans 4). When the fullness of the gentiles has come in and God ends this dispensation and turns back again to Israel, it will go back to requiring both faith and good works.

This single point alone is positive proof that faith cannot be about good works, otherwise, salvation by faith "apart from works" would be a contradiction.

When reading this post through, it occurred to me that I should clarify something here....

I do not want to leave the impression that I believe that faith is merely an intellectual exercise. It is not. Faith is dependence upon God but you cannot trust someone further than you know him and so biblical faith is based on biblical facts and it is when these biblical facts become something more in us than mere pieces of biblical trivia in our minds and becomes something that we are certain of down deep in our souls that it stops being an intellectual exercise and becomes true biblical faith.

Not even close. Submission to God in Faith is NOT Works, it's Faith. Faith results in works, but Faith is NOT the works. Faith is Trusting the Lord, to the point of submission to His will as these men did. That doesn't mean perfection or works to obtain Salvation.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as ye

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

This is a dispensational error that you are making. It makes no sense to be a Mid-Acts dispensationalist and then apply books of the bible in a manner consistent with Acts 2 Dispensationalism or with systems that aren't dispensational at all. The book of Hebrews was not written to you. It was written to believing Jews, thus the name "Hebrews". You are not a Jew of any sort. The book was written to Kingdom believers, not to members of the Body of Christ and as such does not apply to you in this direct of a manner. When you are reading the New Testament, you have to remember who is writing and who is being written too. Everything from Hebrews on through Revelation is all terrific stuff that is very profitable from various perspectives and for various reasons but it is all someone else's mail and has to be read in that light. A failure to do so results in the error you are making here. Specifically, mixing faith with good works, which is not required either for your salvation nor can it result in your sanctification. Quite the contrary, in fact. Your attempts to do and to be better, hobble your walk with Christ and tacitly ignore the biblical fact that you are identified in Christ and cannot be better than you already are.

Put another way, attempting to do good works for sanctification sake, rather than simply resting on the biblical fact of your righteousness in Him, is the opposite of crucifying your flesh daily. It is resurrecting your flesh daily!

We are Saved UNTO good works, NOT because of Good works. I do not Preach works for Salvation. The works we do after Salvation are for Rewards, not Salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As I said in my previous post, it could well be that most of our disagreement is semantic rather than substantive in nature so I caution against taking too much offense until we graduate to a point in the discussion where we've ironed out just what we each mean by the words we are using.

I completely agree that we are indeed saved unto good works. Good works are just that, good! I am not suggesting otherwise.

II Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish [strengthen] you in every good word and work.​

What I am suggesting, indeed more than suggesting, I'm telling you that whatever good works you perform do not alter, enhance, maintain, sustain or in any other way effect your position before (in) God.

“To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure.” - Romans, Verse by Verse, Wm. R. Newell​

​

"Have we been afraid to really believe God? Have some even been afraid to allow others to really believe Him? We must never forget that “God’s ways are not always man’s ways. To some men, constant peril is the only spur to action, and many religions and psychologies are dependent on fear to keep their disciples in line. Fear, too, has a place in Christianity, but God has higher and more effective motivations than fear, and one of these is love. Often fear after a while produces only numbness, but love thrives on love. To promise a man the certainty of his destiny may seem, on the human level, like playing with fire; but this leaves God out of the picture. Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons” (J. W. Sanderson, Jr.).​

God does know all things ahead of time and I am not a Calvinist.

John 21:17

And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

That verse does not teach that God knows everything in the sense that the doctrine of omniscience does. As I said, God knows all things that He wants to know and is able to find out anything else so long as it is knowable.

We know from simple logic that God does not know the unknowable. That's a simple, by definition, piece of thinking. One might want to argue about whether there is any such thing as the unknowable but that's a different discussion. To whatever degree there are things that are unknowable, God does not know them, by definition.

As for things that are knowable, we know with certainty that God does not know everything because He Himself says so....

• They "burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak nor did it come into My mind" Jer. 19:5
• they "cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin" Jer. 32:35
• they "burn their sons and their daughters in the fire [to sacrifice them], which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart" Jer. 7:3.
• God said to Abraham, "now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me" Gen. 22:12
• "the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name" Gen. 2:19
• "there He tested them and said, 'If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God... I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians' " Ex. 15:25-26
• "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not" Ex. 16:4
• "And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not" Deut. 8:2
• "the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut. 13:3;

There are literally dozens more such passages throughout the bible. The idea that God knows every single thing is simply not a biblical doctrine. The doctrine was imported into Christianity by Augustine in the 4th century from the Classics (i.e. Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Plotinus, etc.) which Augustine intentionally and openly interpreted the bible in light of. A fact of history which is not in dispute, by the way. Look it up for yourself if you doubt me.

I highly disagree. Foreknowledge is taught throughout the Bible, but not the Calvinist view. So is Predestination, but not the Calvinist view. We are Predestinated According to Foreknowledge.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

There are things that God foreknows but that is not what the doctrine is about. The use of the word "foreknowledge" is not an endorsement of the idea that God knows every detail of what will happen in the future. It's not even an argument for that. There are things that God has predestined and there are things that He foreknows, but that is a very long way from a doctrine that teaches the every single detail of existence was predestined or that it is foreknown.

Original Sin is taught in the Bible:

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Did you read Ezekiel 18 or did you just ignore me?

Neither of those passages teach the doctrine of original sin. If you think they do there are two and only two possibilities.

1. You do not understand what the doctrine of Original Sin teaches.
2. You are reading the doctrine into those texts.

It could be a bit of both.

God is just! Therefore, the doctrine of Original Sin is false. So says God Himself in Ezekiel 18!

I agree for the most part with you on the TULIP doctrines, except maybe one of two.

None of them, not even one or two, can stand for one second if God can change in ANY WAY whatsoever. The entire Calvinist system is based on that single premise.

​

John 1:14 And the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us....​

We would vastly disagree on a wide array of Doctrines.

We cannot both be right. One (or both) of us is wrong.

How would you go about evaluating one doctrinal system vs. another?

There's a whole list of various doctrines that Christians have debated over the centuries...

Do you have to have good works?
Do you have to get water baptized?
Can one lose their salvation?
Are miracles for today?
Will we suffer through all or part of the tribulation or be raptured out before it begins?
Should we observe the sabbath?
Should we tithe?
etc.

There are well meaning Christians on both sides of such controversies and they cannot all be correct. How can we know who is right and who is wrong? Can we know? Can we even have any confidence about being more likely to be right? If so, how?

I struggled for a long time over this exact issue. My entire youth was spent wondering why the church I attended taught one thing while the church that was literally across the parking lot from my church taught things that were sufficiently different to justify having two completely separate congregations in two full sized church buildings, less than two hundred yards from each other, where no one from either church knew anyone from the other. Across and down the street a ways there was a third church and half a mile down the road was a fourth and between my church and my house, there where probably a dozen or more churches that all taught different stuff. This bugged the crap out of me through my teenage years!

Do you spend any time watching "Christian" television? How many different teachers are there who's head would explode before accepting 10% of Les Feldick's doctrine (i.e. his distinctive doctrines)?

Why is Les any more right than Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer?

Is it just personal preference? Does it just come down to whichever teacher tickles our ear in the most delightful way or is there an objective means by which a doctrinal system can be evaluated?

What if there was a teaching that clearly answered all the above controversies while remaining entirely biblical and completely rational and allowed anyone to read any passage of the bible and take it to mean what it plainly states and at the same time leaving them with no problem texts that must be interpreted to mean something other than the plain reading would seem to be communicating?

Do you suppose that if God came down and we asked Him to give such a teaching that He could do so? God doesn't have problem texts for His doctrine, right? Indeed, if such a teaching exists, wouldn't it be in the bible already?

I submit to you that such a teaching does exist and that it is not only in the bible but that it is "nut-shelled" in one single verse!

Imagine that! One single verse taken at totally its face value with no goofy interpretation or even any need to references the original languages or anything like that at all, that can resolve all these various seemingly unrelated doctrinal debates and, on top of that, leave you with no problem texts and in a state where you can simply read the bible for yourself and understand it by virtue of having simply read it.

I cannot think of a more eloquent argument for any systematic theology than that! Can you?

This is what Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is all about. It is, very simply, the most important theology book that has been written in centuries, if not millennia. In short, and speaking in general terms, if you haven't read The Plot, you don't understand the bible.

Interesting that you are a Mid Acts Dispensationalist, because so am I, but we are vastly different in core Doctrines other than that.

The fact that you accept that the Body of Christ began in Acts 9 with the conversion of Paul means that you are already 99% of the way there. All that remains is for the paradigm shift to occur. Which, even as I write it, I understand sounds rather cryptic. I don't mean for it to be. It's just that you're so close to it that you've gotta be able to smell it and all it's going to take is for you to have this sort of light bulb moment where suddenly all the pieces click together and you see it and then you'll wonder how you hadn't seen it before.

I grew up in those Churches. I am not KJV only, but I do trust it more than any other Translation. Not a hill to die on for me though.

Me either. People can use whatever bible they want. It's just that I personally don't see the advantage of reading God's word in a language I don't speak, including 17th century English.

Yes it does say that our Faith must be in Jesus Christ to be saved, I never said anything about throwing in good works to boot and being good. Never said those things were part of Salvation. But true Faith does submit to God and submission RESULTS in Obedience. Faith is Trusting God to the point of submission, reliance on Him.

You deny saying it and then you say it. I don't get it. Why attempt to have it both ways?

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

None of which say a syllable about obedience!

I know...and you are making a very big mistake if you think you don't need to have Faith in Jesus Christ Himself to be saved....


Right, he's not trying to attain Salvation through works...He trusts in the Lord in Faith....

You forgot this one.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved UNTO good works, not because of good works....

I forgot nothing. I am saved whether I ever do another good thing for the rest of my life because my righteousness has not been and is not being earned or even performed by me but has been imputed to me. It is a gift that I received when I believed and I can neither pay for, nor accept, nor even apply it to my life on the basis of my actions. To do so is to resurrect my flesh which was crucified with Christ.

That is not to say that I will not do another good thing. Quite the contrary! I desire to do nothing but good things, but whether I do or I don't, my standing before God is not effected because I wasn't saved by my actions nor is my relationship with God based on my actions. My entire relationship with God is based solely on my faith in what Christ has done for me and what He is doing through me and on NOTHING else.

I know this stuff as good or better than you do. We need Faith to be saved. Paul said it and I quoted several passages to you.

The disagreement has to do with how you define faith. Why capitalize it? Why insist that it includes works (i.e. obedience) when Paul explicitly states that it does not?

Faith is believing. Faith is Trust.

Exactly!

Believing what? Trusting what?

Trust means you are submitted to God, that you rely on Him. I am not adding works to Salvation, I am defining True, saving Faith. Merely believing something is true is NOT true Faith. Faith Trusts God and relies on Him and yes it believes Him.

Your words here sound correct. Why then do I suspect so strongly that you would condemn anyone who doesn't meet some nebulously undefined standard of devotion in their daily walk? Why do I suspect you to be a "fruit inspector" (as folks like Ray Comfort like to call themselves)?

Christ is the Sacrifice. You must have Faith in Christ along with the Cross, death, burial and resurrection. Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God, It's all one package.


Those who trust in HIM and His Sacrifice on the Cross....

Yeah, you can stop repeating this. There is no disagreement on such points. The degree to which you think I deny these things is the degree to which you have severely misunderstood me.

I find his pace to be fast, but he does stall at times. He cross references better than anyone I have seen. I don't agree with his definition of faith as just "Believing God" I think it's includes believing to the point of trusting God, which results in a submission to Him and His will. This has nothing to do with good works for Salvation.

How does it not?

Seriously, explain that to me. What does "believing to the point of trusting God, which results in a submission to Him and His will" look like in practical terms if not in good works?

I did find two in my State and visited one. I have learned that Mid Acts, doesn't mean I agree with everything they say or teach. Even you and I disagree on many things it seems.

Yeah, like I said, you're so close that it's practically crawling up your leg. I don't know with any certainty yet but it seems like a mere matter of application. You acknowledge that the Body of Christ began with Paul but seem to read and apply the bible as though it began in Acts 2 or even earlier.

You've gotta read The Plot! Or at least listen through the audio of The Plot seminars. I really think you'll be amazed by it. I assure you there isn't anything weird about it. He isn't (wasn't) an Alex Jones type of guy at all where he bases things on half truths or convoluted and obscure theories or anything remotely like that. Bob was a very straight forward and extremely thorough and logical guy. Just as you seem to be, by the way. I'm tellin' ya! You want to read that book!

 

[Idolater]

You’d do better to point out what the Holy Spirit is able to accomplish in your life.
If done in your own efforts, your works will be dross.

My moral obligation is to what the Lord puts before me to do. Moment by moment, no overthinking required.
Paul explains it well here. I can feel all kinds of moral obligations, but that doesn’t mean those things will be accomplished.

Romans 7

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.​

​

​

Bible illiterates and deceivers always quote that scripture without this:

1Co 6:11 (KJV) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

That's right. The Unrighteous are those not forgiven of their sins. Every person has committed sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

It's almost comical to watch a Catholic attempt to use the bible to defend their doctrine. I mean, all you did was quote the very next verse after his proof-text and his whole doctrine get's poofed right out of existence as if you had used the Infinity Gauntlet!

(I used Chat GPT to create the image below. Is anyone else not that impressed with AI's ability to create images? I mean, it's okay, right? It gets the idea across but just how many infinity stones does GPT think exist in the Marvel Universe and was it really that much easier to created pages of gibberish rather than simply portraying an actual page of the bible?)

View attachment 13467

1st Corinthians 6:11 just isn't the dunk you think it is.

I repeat again.

$$ 1Co 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
$$ 1Co 6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice Paul DEFINES his apparently vague or ambiguous term "the unrighteous" IMMEDIATELY.

He defines what he meant by "the unrighteous" immediately.

The way you read 1st Corinthians 6:11 sounds a lot more like you're misreading it:

$$ 1Co 6:11
And such [ARE] some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That's the only reading which would exclude you from "the unrighteous", if you are guilty of committing the things Paul says typifies or exemplifies "the unrighteous", who he certainly says without question, are going to Hell.

A Thought Experiment

So now let's call out a subset of his definition of "the unrighteous", and focus in on it, and you tell me if you agree or not.

"fornicators", "adulterers", "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind", now we don't need to know exactly what these terms all mean individually for this to work, we're just going to pluck these ones out, and combine them together, and call that combination "faggots", and replace anywhere where faggotry is therefore the focused subject, who are guilty of committing these objective offenses, in the text.

So here's what your reading of 1st Corinthians 6:11 sounds like in context if we just consider faggotry, apart from all the other sins he mentions.

$$ 1Co 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no] [FAGGOTS]
$$ 1Co 6:10
... shall inherit the kingdom of God.
$$ 1Co 6:11
And such were some of you ([iow some of you WERE FAGGOTS]): but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
$$ 1Co 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. ([Context: FAGGOTRY])
$$ 1Co 6:13
Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body [is] [sic] not for [FAGGOTRY], but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
$$ 1Co 6:14
And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
$$ 1Co 6:15
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] [sic] the members of [a] [FAGGOT]? God forbid.
$$ 1Co 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to [a] [FAGGOT] is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
$$ 1Co 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
$$ 1Co 6:18
Flee [FAGGOTRY]. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth [FAGGOTRY] sinneth against his own body.
$$ 1Co 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] [sic] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
$$ 1Co 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

It just about literally says "stop being a faggot," and gives an elaborate argument for why. It's absolutely gravely morally obligatory to flee faggotry, for these Corinthians, as such were some of them. Some of them WERE faggots. It's impossible to honestly read this whole passage and come away saying Paul ISN'T saying these Corinthian former faggots are gravely morally obligated to now avoid faggotry.

"glorify God in your body" clearly means, don't be a faggot.

This isn't about being under the law either. This is just Paul. He's not saying you're under a law or not, but he is absolutely saying that these former faggots in Corinth are gravely morally obligated to flee and avoid any more faggotry.

This is just Paul's version of Peter's, a dog returns to its vomit analogy. It's the same thing. You all read difference where there isn't difference, you're missing the forest for the trees. The trees are the precise terms Paul uses as compared to James and Peter and John, but if you take a step back and regard the forest, you can see they're the same forest. Here Paul more brusquely describes a grave moral obligation than Peter did with his 'dog returning to its vomit' analogy. But both are unmistakably saying, do not do it!

In another place, to extend this thought experiment, Paul says reckon yourselves dead to faggotry—that means don't commit faggotry! That doesn't mean c. "faggotry doesn't matter" anymore. It's absolutely plainly a grave moral obligation to avoid faggotry.

Why are we having this dispute?

1st Corinthians 6:12 though certainly suggests that along with obv grave moral obligation to flee and avoid faggotry, if you commit faggotry, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to Hell. He doesn't explain why. So it's nuanced. This is why it's literally impossible for all of us to read the Bible and interpret what it means for ourselves, and us all stick together as chums, it's bound to fail as an enterprise, when these are the starting conditions. It is too nuanced to succeed, it's not unambiguous at all, what's being said in the Bible, it comes to feel like, for me, who believes in God's providence (different in a nuanced way from the Calvinist's sovereignty, note), that it's by design. Like it's booby trapped, to always disable anybody's effort to distance himself from God's One Church, this inherent ambiguity and nuance that's running through every page of the Scripture almost.

The only really kind of clear parts are the narratives and especially, Jesus's parables. Those are crystal clear, but almost everything else, especially the epistles, are extremely nuanced.

 

[Clete]

Why are we having this dispute?

Because we let the text mean what it says and you find "nuanced" ways to make it conform to whatever doctrine you need it to conform to.

 

[Right Divider]

The way you read 1st Corinthians 6:11 sounds a lot more like you're misreading it:

$$ 1Co 6:11
And such [ARE] some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

You are either confused or lying (or both).

The only really kind of clear parts are the narratives and especially, Jesus's parables.

The parables were specifically designed NOT to be understood by those that heard them.
Jesus had to make a special effort to explain them ONLY to His closest disciple.

Matt 13:10-11 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? (13:11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. ​

Those are crystal clear, but almost everything else, especially the epistles, are extremely nuanced.

Supra

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Clete, This is why I keep telling you that you must have Faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. This response from you, seemingly accusing me of believing what you say is the False Doctrine of Lordship Salvation. I am not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I do accept Jesus Christ as My Lord, because that's who He is and Paul does say that we are saved by Faith in Jesus Christ. (Who is the Lord), so I am not sure what your issue is with "Lordship Salvation" I know all of the things that you mention below, but that doesn't mean that we don't have Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord.

It's not just about believing that He died and rose again, your faith must be in Jesus Christ as your Lord AND that He died and rose again.

Lordship salvation is a heresy that the Apostle Paul definitely did not preach. James taught it but the book James wrote was written to believers of the previous dispensation; what Mid-Acts dispensationalists typically refer to as "Kingdom believers" (i.e. those who believed in Christ as the Messiah before the previous dispensation ended and were thus still under a covenant of law (see Romans 11:29)). This includes the Twelve Apostles, James, Jude and all of their converts. Converts, by the way, who were all "zealous for the law" James proclaims in Acts 21:20.

In short, they were preaching a different gospel than that of Paul, which is why Paul was sent by revelation to Jerusalem to explain "his gospel" to Peter, James and John after which they agreed with Paul that he would minister the dispensation of grace to the Gentiles while they would remain in Jerusalem and minister to the Kingdom believers under the dispensation of circumcision (i.e. law) (Galatians 2:6-9).

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The Bible does.

First of all I have NEVER said that one doesn't have to have faith in Christ to be saved. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I guess specifically, you reject that you must have faith in Christ as your Lord, don't you? It's the same thing in my mind.

You, however, don't get to define what the word faith means. I, on the other hand, have presented what is at the very least biblical evidence if not outright proof that the book of Romans, a book divinely inspired by God Himself, defines faith as belief. If you want to have a different definition then I can't stop you but simply showing up to tell me that you're right and that I'm dangerously wrong isn't going to convince anyone, most especially me. I suggest that you make an actual argument rather than relying simply on boldly restating your position.

I used Bible verses in Hebrews to define what faith means and you rejected them because it was written to Jews. I know it wasn't written to Gentile believers, but it still defines faith and is still inspired Scripture. All Scripture is inspired, but not all is written to the Church. My point was that the result of their faith was that they obeyed God. If God tells you to do something and you are submitted to God in Faith, you obey Him. Of course there are times when we fail. Trust-Faith-Believe all mean the same thing. To Trust God in the Biblical sense means that you rely on Him. When you rely on God, you submit to His will. Submission to His will results in obedience. It's not the obedience that saves, it's the Faith. True Faith should result in good deeds, if it doesn't there is a problem somewhere. Les would agree with me on this. It's not works that save and I fully trust in Christ and what He did on the cross to pay for my sins. I am not working for my Salvation in the slightest, but I am working for rewards. I did not just "Show up" and tell you that you were wrong. I gave you Scripture. If you reject it, that is your problem, not mine.

Saying it doesn't make it so. The degree to which you believe that good works are required for any aspect of your standing before God is the degree to which you have, in fact, placed yourself under the law, whether you acknowledge it or not. That is not my opinion, thus the use of the phrase "in fact". Words means thing and ideas have consequences.

You love to put words in my mouth about requiring good works. Never said that. We are saved unto good works, not because of them. Unto good works means (So that we can do them). They are evidence of Faith. Not under Law, not in the slightest, I am not just taking things to the extreme like you are. You seem to believe in Faith without Trusting God or submission to God and I reject that. Saving Faith is subjected to the Lord and His will. It has nothing to do with good deeds or works. It has to do with Trust-Faith-Believe. Yes you are right, words DO mean things and ideas do have consequences.

I never ever suggested otherwise. What in the world did I say that would have led you to make such a comment?

That's a real question. I can't imagine what I could possibly have said that could have engendered such a reaction.

I suspect, but could be wrong, that the problem here is semantic in nature.

I responded below in it's own post.

Define "Worshiping God".

Complete surrender and reliance on God and to His will. Putting Him first in your Life above everything else.

The point I am making is both are accomplished in the same way. The same Spirit that saves is the One Who sanctifies and by the same method - belief. You cannot live a sanctified life via the flesh. YOU cannot live a sanctified life at all! Christ living His life through you is sanctification.

Never said you could live or should live in the flesh.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Well, then we are in complete agreement because I never said that you don't have to have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. That would be stupidity.

I responded to this in the post below. Perhaps we just need clarification.

As stated, I agree with every syllable of this. You keep capitalizing the word "Faith" and so are almost certainly using that word to mean something other than what everyone else on planet Earth, including the biblical authors, mean when they use that word.

Faith-Trust-Believe
Faith
/fāTH/

noun

• 1.complete trust or confidence in someone or something:

Faith - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

"This assent to or belief in the truth received upon the divine testimony has always associated with it a deep sense of sin, a distinct view of Christ, a consenting will, and a loving heart, together with a reliance on, a trusting in, or resting in Christ. It is that state of mind in which a poor sinner, conscious of his sin, flees from his guilty self to Christ his Saviour, and rolls over the burden of all his sins on him. It consists chiefly, not in the assent given to the testimony of God in his Word, but in embracing with fiducial reliance and trust the one and only Saviour whom God reveals. This trust and reliance is of the essence of faith. By faith the believer directly and immediately appropriates Christ as his own. Faith in its direct act makes Christ ours. It is not a work which God graciously accepts instead of perfect obedience, but is only the hand by which we take hold of the person and work of our Redeemer as the only ground of our salvation."

Faith is belief. Saving faith is belief in certain specific things. In times past, salvation was granted to those who mixed faith with good works (James 2). Now it is by faith alone apart from works (Romans 4). When the fullness of the gentiles has come in and God ends this dispensation and turns back again to Israel, it will go back to requiring both faith and good works.

I understand the good works aspect. Yes those under the Law mixed good works with Faith. Never said otherwise. I know about the "Fulness of the Gentiles" I know that during the Tribulation Period that they will once again be under the Gospel of the Kingdom. I know that we are under the Gospel of Grace. I know that the other books other than Paul's were written to Jews under Law except, Hebrews was written to Jews who were on the fence about coming to Paul's Gospel of Grace. They were Jews who practiced the Law, but accepted their Messiah. And I still tell you that I am NOT adding works to Grace. I am telling you that you seem to be saying that you can be saved by merely believing it's true and I am saying NO, you have to have Faith to the point of relying on Christ, Trusting Christ, Submission to His will. Nothing to do with works. You can think that means I am adding works if you want, but I am certainly not. And yes I know that there will be those who did nothing for God who will not receive rewards, but he himself shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Question if God told you to do something and you KNEW it was Him, would you obey? Did the Obedience save you or the fact that you Trust God?

This single point alone is positive proof that faith cannot be about good works, otherwise, salvation by faith "apart from works" would be a contradiction.

I know, I know, I know

When reading this post through, it occurred to me that I should clarify something here...

I do not want to leave the impression that I believe that faith is merely an intellectual exercise. It is not. Faith is dependence upon God but you cannot trust someone further than you know him and so biblical faith is based on biblical facts and it is when these biblical facts become something more in us than mere pieces of biblical trivia in our minds and becomes something that we are certain of down deep in our souls that it stops being an intellectual exercise and becomes true biblical faith.

That's what I have been saying! BINGO That's what I have been saying! Dependence on Him is another way of saying "Trusting Him or Submission to His will" Same thing.

This is a dispensational error that you are making. It makes no sense to be a Mid-Acts dispensationalist and then apply books of the bible in a manner consistent with Acts 2 Dispensationalism or with systems that aren't dispensational at all. The book of Hebrews was not written to you. It was written to believing Jews, thus the name "Hebrews". You are not a Jew of any sort. The book was written to Kingdom believers, not to members of the Body of Christ and as such does not apply to you in this direct of a manner. When you are reading the New Testament, you have to remember who is writing and who is being written too. Everything from Hebrews on through Revelation is all terrific stuff that is very profitable from various perspectives and for various reasons but it is all someone else's mail and has to be read in that light. A failure to do so results in the error you are making here. Specifically, mixing faith with good works, which is not required either for your salvation nor can it result in your sanctification. Quite the contrary, in fact. Your attempts to do and to be better, hobble your walk with Christ and tacitly ignore the biblical fact that you are identified in Christ and cannot be better than you already are.

I was merely using those books written to believing Jews who were on the fence about Paul's Gospel of Grace and using them to define the word Faith. It's still Scripture and still inspired by God. Why not use God's Word to define true Faith? What it is and what it results in...Obedience. I understand that it was written to Kingdom believers, I know, I know, I know, BUT it does define the word FAITH and it is still Scripture inspired by God Himself but yes FOR a different group of believers. There is nothing wrong with using Scripture to define it's self, even if it's written to a different Dispensation. It still defines Faith.

God's Inspired Word Written To Jews Still Practicing Law, On The Fence About Paul's Gospel Of Grace:
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

God's Inspired Word Written To Jews Still Practicing Law, On The Fence About Paul's Gospel Of Grace:

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The Results Of Faith Are Listed Here In These People:

1. Hebrews 11:4
   By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and byit he being dead yet speaketh.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Hebrews 11:5
   By faithEnoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Hebrews 11:7
   By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Hebrews 11:8
   By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Put another way, attempting to do good works for sanctification sake, rather than simply resting on the biblical fact of your righteousness in Him, is the opposite of crucifying your flesh daily. It is resurrecting your flesh daily!

You're kicking a dead horse

As I said in my previous post, it could well be that most of our disagreement is semantic rather than substantive in nature so I caution against taking too much offense until we graduate to a point in the discussion where we've ironed out just what we each mean by the words we are using.

As far as saving faith goes, you may be right. We have other issues that I feel you are way off base on...

I completely agree that we are indeed saved unto good works. Good works are just that, good! I am not suggesting otherwise.

II Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish [strengthen] you in every good word and work.​

What I am suggesting, indeed more than suggesting, I'm telling you that whatever good works you perform do not alter, enhance, maintain, sustain or in any other way effect your position before (in) God.

The do affect your eternal position for Rewards. I would disagree with that, but they do not contribute to your Salvation at all. Christ accomplished that on the Cross.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

“To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure.” - Romans, Verse by Verse, Wm. R. Newell​

​

"Have we been afraid to really believe God? Have some even been afraid to allow others to really believe Him? We must never forget that “God’s ways are not always man’s ways. To some men, constant peril is the only spur to action, and many religions and psychologies are dependent on fear to keep their disciples in line. Fear, too, has a place in Christianity, but God has higher and more effective motivations than fear, and one of these is love. Often fear after a while produces only numbness, but love thrives on love. To promise a man the certainty of his destiny may seem, on the human level, like playing with fire; but this leaves God out of the picture. Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons” (J. W. Sanderson, Jr.).​

That verse does not teach that God knows everything in the sense that the doctrine of omniscience does. As I said, God knows all things that He wants to know and is able to find out anything else so long as it is knowable.

I strongly disagree. God knows all things. Here are a couple of verses that prove that God knows all things:

2 Places That Say That Jesus Knows All Things:

1. John 16:30
   Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 21:17
   He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

All Things Were Created By Jesus Christ AND All Things Hold Together By Jesus Christ. That includes every individual atom in the Universe. You're fooling yourself if you think He doesn't know all things:

Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You can't create all things and hold all things together if you don't know all things. Also, the hundreds of prophecies in the Bible prove that God knows the future and He knows all things.

We know from simple logic that God does not know the unknowable. That's a simple, by definition, piece of thinking. One might want to argue about whether there is any such thing as the unknowable but that's a different discussion. To whatever degree there are things that are unknowable, God does not know them, by definition.

As for things that are knowable, we know with certainty that God does not know everything because He Himself says so....

• They "burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak nor did it come into My mind" Jer. 19:5
• they "cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin" Jer. 32:35
• they "burn their sons and their daughters in the fire [to sacrifice them], which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart" Jer. 7:3.
• God said to Abraham, "now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me" Gen. 22:12
• "the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name" Gen. 2:19
• "there He tested them and said, 'If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God... I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians' " Ex. 15:25-26
• "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not" Ex. 16:4
• "And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not" Deut. 8:2
• "the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut. 13:3;

I think that you are making a terrible mistake. God (Christ) operates on different levels, He does not operate in His deity. He can switch back and forth. In His Godhood, He does know all things, but in His humanity, Christ operates on our level, but yes He does have access to the infinite knowledge by switching to His Godhood. He doesn't need to learn anything. But He does use People and Angels to accomplish His will.

I asked God why if He knows all things before they happen, why can't He just act on that and He replied "All things must be demonstrated in reality"

There are literally dozens more such passages throughout the bible. The idea that God knows every single thing is simply not a biblical doctrine. The doctrine was imported into Christianity by Augustine in the 4th century from the Classics (i.e. Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Plotinus, etc.) which Augustine intentionally and openly interpreted the bible in light of. A fact of history which is not in dispute, by the way. Look it up for yourself if you doubt me.

God knows all things and all possibilities. I have a friend who is a Mid Acts Dispensationalist who thinks like you. Maybe he read that same book as you. All I have to do is read Scripture to know that God knows all things. I don't need {Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, ect.) I just need to look it up in Scripture and that will suffice. It doesn't matter to me if they did believe it or didn't.

There are things that God foreknows but that is not what the doctrine is about. The use of the word "foreknowledge" is not an endorsement of the idea that God knows every detail of what will happen in the future. It's not even an argument for that. There are things that God has predestined and there are things that He foreknows, but that is a very long way from a doctrine that teaches the every single detail of existence was predestined or that it is foreknown.

You sound like the Calvinists that you say you disagree with now. That's exactly what they say. But the truth is that Foreknowledge means foreknowledge. I believe in the foreknowledge of God, but I also believe that God can change His mind and we see examples of Both in Scripture. I believe that God has a framework of everything that must happen, but there is a certain amount of flexibility to that framework that God can change His mind if He wants because He is also Sovereign. Our prayers can change the mind of God on certain things, but not all.

Did you read Ezekiel 18 or did you just ignore me?

Which verse? It's a pretty long chapter and I see nothing there to indicate that God is ignorant of anything.

Neither of those passages teach the doctrine of original sin. If you think they do there are two and only two possibilities.

1. You do not understand what the doctrine of Original Sin teaches.
2. You are reading the doctrine into those texts.

Are you trying to say that we are not born sinners? If that is what you are saying, that is not Biblical. Yes the verses do support that. It's pretty clear. We are sinners because we were in Adam when He sinned. Your DNA was in Adam when he sinned, therefore, you are a sinner. When you put your faith in Christ for Salvation, He applies His righteousness to your account and He took your sin upon Himself on the cross. Substitution.

It could be a bit of both.

God is just! Therefore, the doctrine of Original Sin is false. So says God Himself in Ezekiel 18!

Interesting that you don't like when I use Hebrews to define what Faith is, yet you use Ezekiel written to the Jews under the Law to make your claim. I still disagree with you, you need to give me the verse you are referring to, not just the Chapter. It's a pretty long Chapter to expect me to read all of that.

None of them, not even one or two, can stand for one second if God can change in ANY WAY whatsoever. The entire Calvinist system is based on that single premise.

Calvinists claim that God cannot change. I believe God can change His mind on certain things. You sound like a Calvinist on this point.
So, what are your thoughts on the 5 Arminian points of Doctrine?

​

John 1:14 And the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us....​

Yes and that's Jesus Christ.

We cannot both be right. One (or both) of us is wrong.

How would you go about evaluating one doctrinal system vs. another?

There's a whole list of various doctrines that Christians have debated over the centuries...

Do you have to have good works?
Do you have to get water baptized?
Can one lose their salvation?
Are miracles for today?
Will we suffer through all or part of the tribulation or be raptured out before it begins?
Should we observe the sabbath?
Should we tithe?
etc.

There are well meaning Christians on both sides of such controversies and they cannot all be correct. How can we know who is right and who is wrong? Can we know? Can we even have any confidence about being more likely to be right? If so, how?

I struggled for a long time over this exact issue. My entire youth was spent wondering why the church I attended taught one thing while the church that was literally across the parking lot from my church taught things that were sufficiently different to justify having two completely separate congregations in two full sized church buildings, less than two hundred yards from each other, where no one from either church knew anyone from the other. Across and down the street a ways there was a third church and half a mile down the road was a fourth and between my church and my house, there where probably a dozen or more churches that all taught different stuff. This bugged the crap out of me through my teenage years!

Do you spend any time watching "Christian" television? How many different teachers are there who's head would explode before accepting 10% of Les Feldick's doctrine (i.e. his distinctive doctrines)?

Why is Les any more right than Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer?

Is it just personal preference? Does it just come down to whichever teacher tickles our ear in the most delightful way or is there an objective means by which a doctrinal system can be evaluated?

What if there was a teaching that clearly answered all the above controversies while remaining entirely biblical and completely rational and allowed anyone to read any passage of the bible and take it to mean what it plainly states and at the same time leaving them with no problem texts that must be interpreted to mean something other than the plain reading would seem to be communicating?

Do you suppose that if God came down and we asked Him to give such a teaching that He could do so? God doesn't have problem texts for His doctrine, right? Indeed, if such a teaching exists, wouldn't it be in the bible already?

I submit to you that such a teaching does exist and that it is not only in the bible but that it is "nut-shelled" in one single verse!

Imagine that! One single verse taken at totally its face value with no goofy interpretation or even any need to references the original languages or anything like that at all, that can resolve all these various seemingly unrelated doctrinal debates and, on top of that, leave you with no problem texts and in a state where you can simply read the bible for yourself and understand it by virtue of having simply read it.

I cannot think of a more eloquent argument for any systematic theology than that! Can you?

This is what Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is all about. It is, very simply, the most important theology book that has been written in centuries, if not millennia. In short, and speaking in general terms, if you haven't read The Plot, you don't understand the bible.


The fact that you accept that the Body of Christ began in Acts 9 with the conversion of Paul means that you are already 99% of the way there. All that remains is for the paradigm shift to occur. Which, even as I write it, I understand sounds rather cryptic. I don't mean for it to be. It's just that you're so close to it that you've gotta be able to smell it and all it's going to take is for you to have this sort of light bulb moment where suddenly all the pieces click together and you see it and then you'll wonder how you hadn't seen it before.


Me either. People can use whatever bible they want. It's just that I personally don't see the advantage of reading God's word in a language I don't speak, including 17th century English.


You deny saying it and then you say it. I don't get it. Why attempt to have it both ways?


None of which say a syllable about obedience!


I forgot nothing. I am saved whether I ever do another good thing for the rest of my life because my righteousness has not been and is not being earned or even performed by me but has been imputed to me. It is a gift that I received when I believed and I can neither pay for, nor accept, nor even apply it to my life on the basis of my actions. To do so is to resurrect my flesh which was crucified with Christ.

That is not to say that I will not do another good thing. Quite the contrary! I desire to do nothing but good things, but whether I do or I don't, my standing before God is not effected because I wasn't saved by my actions nor is my relationship with God based on my actions. My entire relationship with God is based solely on my faith in what Christ has done for me and what He is doing through me and on NOTHING else.


The disagreement has to do with how you define faith. Why capitalize it? Why insist that it includes works (i.e. obedience) when Paul explicitly states that it does not?


Exactly!

Believing what? Trusting what?


Your words here sound correct. Why then do I suspect so strongly that you would condemn anyone who doesn't meet some nebulously undefined standard of devotion in their daily walk? Why do I suspect you to be a "fruit inspector" (as folks like Ray Comfort like to call themselves)?


Yeah, you can stop repeating this. There is no disagreement on such points. The degree to which you think I deny these things is the degree to which you have severely misunderstood me.


How does it not?

Seriously, explain that to me. What does "believing to the point of trusting God, which results in a submission to Him and His will" look like in practical terms if not in good works?


Yeah, like I said, you're so close that it's practically crawling up your leg. I don't know with any certainty yet but it seems like a mere matter of application. You acknowledge that the Body of Christ began with Paul but seem to read and apply the bible as though it began in Acts 2 or even earlier.

You've gotta read The Plot! Or at least listen through the audio of The Plot seminars. I really think you'll be amazed by it. I assure you there isn't anything weird about it. He isn't (wasn't) an Alex Jones type of guy at all where he bases things on half truths or convoluted and obscure theories or anything remotely like that. Bob was a very straight forward and extremely thorough and logical guy. Just as you seem to be, by the way. I'm tellin' ya! You want to read that book!

 

[Idolater]

Because we let the text mean what it says and you find "nuanced" ways to make it conform to whatever doctrine you need it to conform to.

Does 1st Corinthians 6 say to stop being a faggot or not Clete.

 

[Clete]

Clete, This is why I keep telling you that you must have Faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. This response from you, seemingly accusing me of believing what you say is the False Doctrine of Lordship Salvation. I am not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I do accept Jesus Christ as My Lord, because that's who He is and Paul does say that we are saved by Faith in Jesus Christ. (Who is the Lord), so I am not sure what your issue is with "Lordship Salvation" I know all of the things that you mention below, but that doesn't mean that we don't have Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord.

To be clear, it is very possible that I am reacting to a false impression. It is curious, however, that we've gone this long and I'm still not convinced that's the case. It is still possible though. We'll see.


The phrase "lordship salvation" refers to any doctrine or belief that implies a requirement of good works to gain, maintain, supplement, improve or otherwise sustain a relationship with God. It's faith plus devotion or faith plus obedience or faith plus ___________ (fill in the blank).

Here's what about 15 seconds of searching the internet produced....

"Lordship salvation is a theological view in Christianity emphasizing that genuine faith in Jesus Christ includes submission to Him as Lord, not just belief in Him as Savior. Proponents argue that salvation involves both trusting in Christ for forgiveness of sins and a willingness to follow Him in obedience and discipleship.​

​

Key elements of Lordship salvation include:​

1. Repentance: True saving faith requires turning away from sin.
2. Submission: Acknowledging Christ's authority in all areas of life.
3. Fruit of Salvation: Good works and a transformed life are seen as evidence of genuine faith.

Critics of this view often argue it risks conflating faith with works and might undermine the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone."​

​

That last sentence states nicely what I am getting at! It feels very much like you are trying to sneak good works in through the back door by defining the word "faith" in a way that includes good words. Also, the fact that you consistently capitalize the word "Faith" seems to indicate that you mean something by it that goes beyond simply believing Paul's gospel.

Lordship salvation is a heresy that the Apostle Paul definitely did not preach. James taught it but the book James wrote was written to believers of the previous dispensation; what Mid-Acts dispensationalists typically refer to as "Kingdom believers" (i.e. those who believed in Christ as the Messiah before the previous dispensation ended and were thus still under a covenant of law (see Romans 11:29)). This includes the Twelve Apostles, James, Jude and all of their converts. Converts, by the way, who were all "zealous for the law" James proclaims in Acts 21:20.

In short, they were preaching a different gospel than that of Paul, which is why Paul was sent by revelation to Jerusalem to explain "his gospel" to Peter, James and John after which they agreed with Paul that he would minister the dispensation of grace to the Gentiles while they would remain in Jerusalem and minister to the Kingdom believers under the dispensation of circumcision (i.e. law) (Galatians 2:6-9).

That is all just a quote of my previous post. I assume that you left it there accidentally.

 

[Clete]

Does 1st Corinthians 6 say to stop being a faggot or not Clete.

What does that have to do with anything?

Incidentally, I believe strongly that homosexuality and adultery should be recriminalized and that those convicted should be publicly and painfully executed and it isn't just 1st Corinthians that supports that!

 

[Clete]

The Bible does.

Then make the argument.

I guess specifically, you reject that you must have faith in Christ as your Lord, don't you? It's the same thing in my mind.

This was said in response to my explicit statement to the contrary.

If you are attempting to intentionally waste my time, we will stop getting along very quickly.

I used Bible verses in Hebrews to define what faith means and you rejected them because it was written to Jews.

Yes. The book of Hebrews is teaching doctrine to people from the previous dispensation which required good works.

I know it wasn't written to Gentile believers, but it still defines faith and is still inspired Scripture.

The definition is give is...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​

Not any mention there of good works or obedience or even strong affection.

It is, in fact, a rather artful way of saying that faith isn't blind belief but that it is based on substantive evidence. Faith is one's willingness to accept the verdict of the evidence presented to you about God without Him having to come down here and present Himself for physical examination.

John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”​

Thomas there is actually quite lucky really. The biblical pattern is that people have the opposite reaction to being presented with physical proof of a faith based matter. Pharaoh's heart was hardened by the performance of undeniable miracles. Israel witnessed daily, in your face, completely undeniable miracle after miracle after miracle for forty years and the whole nation fell dead in the desert. Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead was the straw the broke the camel's back and triggered the Pharisees' plot to kill Him. The point being that seeing and touching and experiencing proof is fleshly and generally runs counter to faith. This is further illustrated by the fact that Israel, who had the covenant of circumcision, a convenient of law, a covenant of works, a covenant of flesh, where themselves cut off.

All Scripture is inspired, but not all is written to the Church. My point was that the result of their faith was that they obeyed God.

Because obedience was required of them in their covenant of law.

If God tells you to do something and you are submitted to God in Faith, you obey Him.

God does not require us to do anything! That's the entire point!

Grace was established not with Abraham but with Abram!

That's probably too cryptic of a statement. What I mean by that is that before Abram became Abraham, God had him bring several animals and cut them all in half and lay them out. Then God put him into a deep sleep and God Himself walked alone between the cut sacrifice when He made His covenant with Abram. There wasn't anything required of Abram to maintain this covenant with God because he wasn't even conscious when the deal was made. It wasn't until much later that God began a new covenant with him, instituted circumcision and changed his name to Abraham. The former covenant being grace and the later being law. Thus we read in Romans...

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,​

And whose sins are covered;​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”​

​

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.​

But in James we read the opposite...

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.​

(Abraham's offering of Isaac happened probable about twenty-ish years after circumcision started.)​

Which is in completely keeping with the passages you cited in Hebrews and for the exact same reason!

Of course there are times when we fail. Trust-Faith-Believe all mean the same thing. To Trust God in the Biblical sense means that you rely on Him. When you rely on God, you submit to His will. Submission to His will results in obedience. It's not the obedience that saves, it's the Faith. True Faith should result in good deeds, if it doesn't there is a problem somewhere.

A more textbook rendering of "lordship salvation" can hardly be found.

Les would agree with me on this.

I have no doubt that this would have been true before his death. Now he agrees with me!

It's not works that save and I fully trust in Christ and what He did on the cross to pay for my sins. I am not working for my Salvation in the slightest, but I am working for rewards.

There are works and then there are works. I fear that yours will be burned up. Not because their bad but because they are of your flesh.

I could very well be wrong and hope that I am but I've been around the block on this issue a great many times with various people over the years and for some reason, you statements just make me worry.

I did not just "Show up" and tell you that you were wrong. I gave you Scripture. If you reject it, that is your problem, not mine.

I agree that you have presented some arguments for some points and to the degree you have done so, I have responded to them. Other times you make bald claims and when that happens I point out that saying it doesn't make it so. All I am trying to get at is that you should make arguments, not claims.

You love to put words in my mouth about requiring good works. Never said that.

I know full well that you haven't said it outright but you have implied it and now, in this thread you have said it outright....

"True Faith should result in good deeds, if it doesn't there is a problem somewhere."​

​

I am not making this stuff up out of whole clothe. I could tell almost instantly that this is likely what you believed. The mere fact that you capitalize the word "Faith" was a sufficiently big red flag to get my attention.

We are saved unto good works, not because of them. Unto good works means (So that we can do them). They are evidence of Faith. Not under Law, not in the slightest, I am not just taking things to the extreme like you are. You seem to believe in Faith without Trusting God or submission to God and I reject that. Saving Faith is subjected to the Lord and His will. It has nothing to do with good deeds or works. It has to do with Trust-Faith-Believe. Yes you are right, words DO mean things and ideas do have consequences.

You deny it and then state it. This is not the first time you've done this. You are straddling a fence here that cannot be straddled.

It simply cannot be so that...

"It has nothing to do with good deeds or works."
and...
"True Faith should result in good deeds, if it doesn't there is a problem somewhere."

Those two things are contradictions!

Also, as I have stated before, your sanctification is not accomplished by your works any more than your salvation was! You ARE sanctified - in Him - by faith - apart from works! You are not being fixed, you have been crucified - in Him!

Any good works that you're going to get any rewards for do not come as a response to your salvation leading inexorably toward your sanctification. On the contrary! If that is the way you are thinking then you're getting nowhere. Good works that end in heavenly rewards come as a result of being sanctified, they are not requisite to it.

What you've got to get into your thinking is that you are already as perfectly righteous as it is possible for anyone to ever be. Not because you do good things but because Christ's righteousness has been (past tense) imputed to you. In other words, as far as God is concerned, it is not possible for you to be disobedient to Him because you're dead and the life you now live is Christ living His life through you. When God looks at you, He sees Christ and Christ is not disobedient even if your flesh is!

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​

​

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

​

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Once the reality of your perfection in Christ gets settled in your mind then those good works we are saved unto start reproducing like rabbits! But not because of our devotion, not because of our obedience, but because of love! Faith works by love - not obedience! (i.e. in this dispensation).

Charles Trumbull said...

“The effortless life is not the will-less life. We use our will to believe, to receive, but not to exert effort in trying to accomplish what only God can do. Our hope for victory over sin is not ‘Christ plus my efforts,’ but ‘Christ plus my receiving.’ To receive victory from Him is to believe His Word that solely by His grace He is, this moment, freeing us from the dominion of sin. And to believe on Him in this way is to recognize that He is doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves.” We learned this principle at the time of our spiritual birth, and it seems that most of us have to learn it all over again for our spiritual growth and service. Fear not, dear friend; just hold firm to the fact of His purpose for you in Christ, and He will faithfully take you step by step into all the necessary preparation—He will do it. Once you are sure of the purpose, you can be equally positive of the preparation. Simply remember that Romans 8:28 and 29 go together, and thank Him for Philippians 1:6.”​

​

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;​

That's what I have been saying! BINGO That's what I have been saying! Dependence on Him is another way of saying "Trusting Him or Submission to His will" Same thing.

I understand you're frustration and empathize with it but, no, I don't think we are quite saying the same thing. Close to it but not quite.

I was merely using those books written to believing Jews who were on the fence about Paul's Gospel of Grace and using them to define the word Faith. It's still Scripture and still inspired by God. Why not use God's Word to define true Faith?

Well, to put it simply, because "true faith" has meant different things during different dispensations. James wasn't kidding when he said that faith without works is dead. He was right! It was dead - during the dispensation he was teaching in.

What it is and what it results in...Obedience. I understand that it was written to Kingdom believers, I know, I know, I know, BUT it does define the word FAITH and it is still Scripture inspired by God Himself but yes FOR a different group of believers. There is nothing wrong with using Scripture to define it's self, even if it's written to a different Dispensation. It still defines Faith.

God's Inspired Word Written To Jews Still Practicing Law, On The Fence About Paul's Gospel Of Grace:
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

God's Inspired Word Written To Jews Still Practicing Law, On The Fence About Paul's Gospel Of Grace:

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The Results Of Faith Are Listed Here In These People:

1. Hebrews 11:4
   By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and byit he being dead yet speaketh.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Hebrews 11:5
   By faithEnoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Hebrews 11:7
   By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Hebrews 11:8
   By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Not for you, it does NOT define faith. This is proof that you are indeed mixing works with faith. I have no doubt that you have no intention of doing so but if you're looking to Hebrews to define your faith rather than Paul, you've taken a wrong turn.

The do affect your eternal position for Rewards. I would disagree with that, but they do not contribute to your Salvation at all. Christ accomplished that on the Cross.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The question you need to answer is what is the difference between a work that gets burned up vs. one that gets rewarded.

If it is a work motivated by obedience, I'm telling ya, it's going to get burned up. Its the works you do that you don't have to do, that you aren't required to do, that you haven't been told to do, but that you do because you know that you are fully loved by God and you love people too and you simply want to do it. These are the works that we are saved unto and that will be rewarded. All others are of the flesh.

I strongly disagree. God knows all things. Here are a couple of verses that prove that God knows all things:

2 Places That Say That Jesus Knows All Things:

1. John 16:30
   Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 21:17
   He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

So, repeating your position does not count as a rebuttal to the argument I have already made. Ignoring what I've said, doesn't mean that I didn't say it. Let's try this again....

These are hyperbolic statements. When you take such figures of speech as woodenly literal you end up being faced with open contradictions where you're forced to insist that whole passages of scripture don't mean what they say or worse that they mean the opposite of what they say.

Genesis 6:5-6 – "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth... And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart."​

Indicates God responded to humanity’s actions with regret, implying new awareness.​

​

Genesis 18:20-21 – "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great... I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."​

God expresses the need to investigate the situation before deciding.​

​

Genesis 22:12 – "Do not lay your hand on the lad... for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."​

God learns of Abraham’s obedience through the test.​

​

Exodus 32:7-14 – After Israel’s idolatry with the golden calf, God considers destroying them, but Moses intercedes, and God changes His mind.​

God’s willingness to change His decision suggests responsiveness to new developments.​

​

Jeremiah 18:7-10 – God explains how His plans for nations depend on their actions:​

"If that nation... turns from its evil, I will relent... If it does evil... I will relent concerning the good I said I would do to it."​

This dynamic approach indicates God’s plans are contingent on human choices.​

​

Jeremiah 19:5 – "They have built the high places of Baal... to burn their sons with fire... which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind."​

God explicitly states He didn’t anticipate or imagine Israel’s idolatrous practices.​

​

Jonah 3:10 – "Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them."​

God’s response to Nineveh’s repentance suggests openness to their choices.​

​

Isaiah 5:3-7 – In the parable of the vineyard, God expresses disappointment over Israel’s disobedience, asking:​

"What more could have been done to My vineyard...? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes?"​

This shows unmet expectations.​

All that the bible can support in regards to what God knows is that He knows most everything but not every single thing. He knows what He wants to know and is able to find out anything He doesn't already know so long as the information is knowable.

Further, in relation to the notion of divine foreknowledge. If it were true that God knew every event of the future it would be proof that we do not have free will. Consider the following argument...

T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am​

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

Source​

Do you believe that God is just? I expect that you do. That position logically requires that we have free will. Thus, if the bible actually did teach that God exhaustively and infallibly foreknows the future, it would falsify the bible because it cannot be denied that the bible depicts God as being a just Judge which could not be the case if we have no free will.

Lucky for us that the bible teaches the veritable opposite of exhaustive divine foreknowledge.

All Things Were Created By Jesus Christ AND All Things Hold Together By Jesus Christ. That includes every individual atom in the Universe. You're fooling yourself if you think He doesn't know all things:

Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

On the contrary, it is you simply reading your doctrine into that text. That passage does not teach that God is in meticulous control or that He is even consciously aware of each individual event that happens throughout the universe. What a lousy design that would be! Imagine making a wooden box that would fall flat on the table unless you stood there to hold the pieces in place. It's just a ridiculous reading of that passage and it flatly isn't what it teaches. Indeed, the only reason you believe it at all is because Augustine important the silliness into Christianity from pagan Greek philosophy.

I think that you are making a terrible mistake. God (Christ) operates on different levels, He does not operate in His deity. He can switch back and forth. In His Godhood, He does know all things, but in His humanity, Christ operates on our level, but yes He does have access to the infinite knowledge by switching to His Godhood. He doesn't need to learn anything. But He does use People and Angels to accomplish His will.

This is your doctrine. It is not what the bible teaches.

I asked God why if He knows all things before they happen, why can't He just act on that and He replied "All things must be demonstrated in reality"

Liar.

Do not saying this to me that you know are false.

God knows all things and all possibilities.

The bible teaches otherwise, as I demonstrated above.

I have a friend who is a Mid Acts Dispensationalist who thinks like you. Maybe he read that same book as you. All I have to do is read Scripture to know that God knows all things. I don't need {Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, ect.) I just need to look it up in Scripture and that will suffice. It doesn't matter to me if they did believe it or didn't.

The exact opposite it true. You are blind to it for now but that doesn't mean it isn't the case.

All of the omni-doctrines are overstatements of the actual biblical truth and they were all imported in their current form into Christianity by Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century. I can establish that as fact if you need me to do so.

You sound like the Calvinists that you say you disagree with now. That's exactly what they say.

It is the opposite of what they say. Did you read it right?

But the truth is that Foreknowledge means foreknowledge.

There are things that God foreknows because He has determined to bring them to pass by His own power. There is, for example, no preventing the marriage feast of the Lamb. There is no preventing the Day of Redemption. There is no preventing the destruction of this Earth and the creation of a New Earth and a New Heaven. There is no preventing the Tree of Life producing 12 fruits, one coming ripe each month in Heaven for eternity. (So much for there being no time in heaven!). These things God knows will happen because their occurrence doesn't depend anyone or anything other than Himself and the exercise of His own power to do what He wants to do.

I believe in the foreknowledge of God, but I also believe that God can change His mind and we see examples of Both in Scripture.

Well, the two are quite completely self-contradictory.

I believe that God has a framework of everything that must happen, but there is a certain amount of flexibility to that framework that God can change His mind if He wants because He is also Sovereign. Our prayers can change the mind of God on certain things, but not all.

This is your doctrine but it is not what the bible teaches.

Which verse? It's a pretty long chapter and I see nothing there to indicate that God is ignorant of anything.

It isn't about God being ignorant of anything. You've skipped over the point somehow. Ezekiel 18 is about God not holding anyone responsible for the sins of their ancestor. No one is guilty before God because of Adam's sin (i.e. other than Adam, of course.)

Are you trying to say that we are not born sinners? If that is what you are saying, that is not Biblical. Yes the verses do support that. It's pretty clear. We are sinners because we were in Adam when He sinned. Your DNA was in Adam when he sinned, therefore, you are a sinner. When you put your faith in Christ for Salvation, He applies His righteousness to your account and He took your sin upon Himself on the cross. Substitution.

I don't have time to establish it again. Your disagreement doesn't count as a rebuttal of the argument.

Interesting that you don't like when I use Hebrews to define what Faith is, yet you use Ezekiel written to the Jews under the Law to make your claim.

This was stupidity.

I still disagree with you, you need to give me the verse you are referring to, not just the Chapter. It's a pretty long Chapter to expect me to read all of that.

The entire chapter is all about the exact same topic. The point it's making is repeated several times.

Calvinists claim that God cannot change. I believe God can change His mind on certain things. You sound like a Calvinist on this point.

You aren't reading my statements carefully enough.

ALL FIVE POINTS of Calvinist, not just two or three but all five of them crumble to dust if God is able to change IN ANY WAY! If he can change His mind, as you state, which of course He totally can, then not even one or two points of Calvinism can be accepted as true because that are all predicate upon and rationally dependent on the idea that God is utterly immutable.

So, what are your thoughts on the 5 Arminian points of Doctrine?

They're too Calvinistic for my taste.

They're even less rationally consistent that Calvinism is.

Yes and that's Jesus Christ.

The point is that the incarnation is a change. If God is immutable, then the incarnation couldn't have happened, much less God's death of the cross and His resurrection.